Jawed From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 482 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7779 times:
After an airline pilot has trained for a new type of aircraft (let's say for a 737, 767, A320) in the simulator, I assume he/she takes his first real flight in that aircraft as the first officer, and not as the captain. My question is, if the captain were to be incapacitated during that first flight for whatever reason, would the brand-new first officer be confident enough to handle everything? He/she would have to take on a large workload since usually two people split some of the tasks in the cockpit. Is there sufficient simulator training for this scenario for a first-time first officer who is brand new to the aircraft?
SandroZRH From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 7736 times:
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): Is there sufficient simulator training for this scenario for a first-time first officer who is brand new to the aircraft
Yes, that's one of the key goals of typerating training. We train single pilot ops in the simulator (I'm currently doing my A320 typerating training). Furthermore, a new junior F/O will be flying under supervision on his first few rotations, so in case of pilot incapacitation, there will be a third pilot on the jumpseat who could jump into action.
However despite all the training, in the end it's still a simulator, and you won't ever be able to simulate the real event (especially from a psychological point of view). But even if i don't know the psychological pressures that such an event would generate, I'm totally confident that I would be able to handle everything just fine.
Alias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2862 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7432 times:
Quoting Jamotcx (Reply 2): simple, like above the first few sectors depending upon FO experience will have a "safety pilot" who normally is a standard FO
Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 1): Furthermore, a new junior F/O will be flying under supervision on his first few rotations, so in case of pilot incapacitation, there will be a third pilot on the jumpseat who could jump into action.
Perhaps that's required in Europe, but neither regional I've worked for in the US has a program like this, and it is not required by federal regulations. Though I'm certainly not familiar with every airline's training program, I've never heard of an airline in the United States that adds a third pilot when a new FO is in the right seat.
Anyone know of an American carrier that does this?
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
Flyer732 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 1386 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7412 times:
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 3): Perhaps that's required in Europe, but neither regional I've worked for in the US has a program like this, and it is not required by federal regulations. Though I'm certainly not familiar with every airline's training program, I've never heard of an airline in the United States that adds a third pilot when a new FO is in the right seat.
Anyone know of an American carrier that does this?
I've seen a new FO in the cockpit at my airline, along with two other FO and the Captain on a 9 hour flight, so it does happen in the US.
AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3526 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7235 times:
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): I assume he/she takes his first real flight in that aircraft as the first officer, and not as the captain.
Uh... not at AA [or any USA airline I am aware of]. My Captain upgrade training was for MD90 and I was coming off of B757/767. I got AA's full 4-week Transition/Upgrade Training syllabus [2-weeks ground school, 2-weeks sims], then a week of "Differences" training at LGB. My first flight in the aircraft was a passenger revenue flight with a Check Airman [training Captain flying as my FO]. The Check Airman is officially the Captain [signs all paperwork, officially responsible for the flights & crews] but I did everything and he was there to make sure I didn't screw up. Minimum required line operating experience was 25 flight hours followed by a "check-ride" by an FAA Inspector [required for 1st time Captains]. There were only two FAA Inspectors available for MD90 so it was almost a month before we got that completed. During that time I continued to fly my monthly schedule, but with an AA Check Airmen the entire time [my scheduled FO loved it].
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
SCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5840 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7205 times:
While it is "new stuff" for an upgrading FO, the biggest issue is familiarization with systems and procedures and, frankly, with systems and procedures in hand, most competent pilots should be able to land a plane they've never flown.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
Pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6953 times:
A guy from my class at my first airline had to do this. While he was on IOE the check airman had a heart issue and was basically incapacitated. He had one or two landings and about four legs when he did everything on his own. Everything turned out fine.
By the time you touch the controls of the real deal you have weeks of systems and procedures training and about 25 hours of simulator time where there is no such thing as a normal landing. You're constantly dealing with engine failures, fires, and other issues. The training is so intense that you're almost surprised during the first take off roll that the fire detection system isn't going off. There's no reason to waste the expense and add the complexity of having an additional pilot up there when you have already proven that you're capable of handling things in the most difficult and unreal situation possible.
I've flown with a number of captains that have upgraded from the right seat of the 145/CRJ or switched types and I've had more hours in the 170. Doesn't mean anything.
Why would an airline spend all the time to train a pilot for the left seat, then put them in the right seat where the rolls are different, the flows are different, and the job is different? That's beyond unsafe.
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2264 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6869 times:
First you don't have to be the F/O just because you're new to the jet. You could have waited until you were senior enough to hold capt. A new F/O OR Capt will fly with a Check Airmen for approx 25 hrs in IOE. If he's a new F/O the CA is in the left seat, if he's a Capt the CA is in the right seat but still PIC.
WILCO737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9263 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6869 times:
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I did my first landing with passengers back in 2004. I came fresh from the simulator right onto the B738.
I had a flight training where we did traffic patterns, total of 7 landings I did there.
The first 2 flights I was sitting on the Jumpseat (FRA-TFS-FRA), did some talking on the radio and observing what the guys are doing, asked a bunch of questions etc.
The next flights I was sitting in the B738 again, but this time in the F/O seat. Until then I only did the 7 landings in the actual airplane.
At this airline it was procedure to be the PNF (pilot non flying) for the initial 4 sectors, I think it were 4... cannot remember 100%... So I did all the F/O duties without actually landing the plane. A safety F/O (normal line F/O) was sitting on the jumpseat and in case something went wrong with the CP he could've landed the plane or even I was capable of doing it.
Then on the next sector I was the PF (Pilot flying) and I did my first landing with 186 passengers (full house) with a brandnew airplane out of a VOR/DME approach runway 16 in Thessaloniki... Man, my pulse was at 180 But it went perfectly fine and it was a safe landing, just as trained in the simulator or the real landings without passengers.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31775 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6330 times:
Quoting Jawed (Thread starter): My question is, if the captain were to be incapacitated during that first flight for whatever reason, would the brand-new first officer be confident enough to handle everything?
Todays SIMs are quite realistic,but true the real emergency would generate different pressure & stress levels.
Out here....For a certain period of time,till cleared,the fresher F/O will have a Safety pilot flying along with the crew as back up.
GRZ-AIR From Austria, joined Apr 2001, 574 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6235 times:
Oh memory lane..
Just like Wilco I also had the so called "aircraft training" right after simulator training. It's basically touch and go training with an empty airplane to get the real feel of the airplane with different flap settings etc... If I recall correctly I did 6 touch and go's and then a 7 minute flight "home" with a full stop landing.
Then came the observer phase. I think it was 8 legs as observing pilot. You check in with the crew, wear your uniform and are an official crew member, without flying. You may do some paperwork or talk on the radio. I also went on a nightstop with the crew.
And then comes your first flight as an actual airline pilot. At my company the first 8 flights are accompanied by an experienced first officer on the jump seat. In case of captain incapacitation you will switch seats with the experienced FO as per procedure! What a nice guy mine was..he whispered to me after my first flight something along the lines of "psst..hey whatever the old guy says, that was a real nice landing ".
After 8 flights you have the "incapacitation check" where you will perform all tasks of the flight alone, or let's say almost all of them. The instructor captain will not interfere with the flight to make sure you can and could handle everything safely on your own. I had mine out of FRA with about 9 hours on type and about 160 hours total time. From then on it's a 2 man (err I mean 2 person - for the gals ) cockpit.
At my employer it is required to fly 100 hours or approx. 60 legs whichever is more "under supervision" with specially trained instructor captains (TRI). In those 100 hours you will have 3-4 incapacitation checks. Then you have a release flight (2 legs, 1PNF, 1PF) where a check airmen on the jumpseat will sign you off and thereafter finally the 2 check flights. The whole process will take about 4-6 months untill you are released to "fly the line".
DeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5598 times:
Corporate seems so...different. In the Part 91 world that is.
Coming out of FlightSafety or SimuFlite, etc with a fresh type rating in pocket, assuming it's your first type rating and you have none or minimal time in jets, you'll have a Supervised Operating Experience (SOE) limitation on your license, usually 15 or 25 hours depending on what your experience level was before you got the type. The SOE basically says you need to perform X many hours in the left seat, performing the duties of Pilot in Command. But, for the most part, no one is going to go from having no type rating to being a fully employed Captain on a corporate jet, without some experience before. However, a guy could go from say, flying a Falcon 900 to flying a Gulfstream V and go right into being the a Capt on the bird, same as the airlines...depends on insurance requirements, etc etc.
You'll have recieved all of the training anyone else would going through the same course (Captain or FO). Engine failures, fires, hydraulics, electrical, pneumatics, brakes, flight controls, you name it, all sorts of malfunctions. Most corporate jets have the PF sitting in the left seat for his/her leg, Capt or FO, so it's all pretty standardized for the most part, depending on who you're flying for. Corporate is a different animal sometimes in that respect.