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747-200B SUD Questions  
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2012 posts, RR: 14
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

In 1984 KLM and UTA decided to convert their 747-200's, powered with GE CF6-50 engines, to the SUD (stretched upper deck) configuration. The converted aircraft became 747-200(SUD) aircraft, however on the 747 Type Certificate A20WE this subtype is not mentioned.
In fact they remained 747-200B aircraft in all documentation.
During September 1984 till march 1886 the following 12 aircraft were converted (not in the right order).
- B747-206B serial numbers 21110, 21111,21549,21550,21659,21660,21848,22376,22379 and 22380.
- B747-2B3B serial numbers 22514 and 22515

I have two questions concerning this conversion :

-Is there an STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) issued for this conversion? I couldn't find on Internet.

- Are pictures available (on the net) of the actual modification in the Boeing factory in Seattle. I can remember that some were publicized in KLM magazines.

.


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1448 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

It was an STC if the TC was not amended. I did some looking in the Regulatory and Guidance Library and came across STC's SA1442CE-D, SA1443CE-D, and SA1444CE-D which state they install an extended upper deck and Type I door on the LH side so these are likely the STC's.

The applicant is Boeing Wichita which specializes in these type of modifications though the photos I have seen show the actual modifications taking place in the Everett factory. I'm sure there are photos, but I cannot recall where I saw them.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

Thank you for searching on the Internet for me
However all these STC's are from the (inside) extension of the upper-deck to put pax. seats in the former lounge area. During this modification also extra pax. windows and one extra emergency escape door was added on the left side. Most 747-100's and early 747-200's were delivered with one RH emergency escape door and 3 windows at each side. All above mentioned STC's were performed around 1980.
KLM performed this modification on 747-206B aircraft, powered by JT9D-7W engines.
These aircraft did not receive the upper-deck extension to make them 747-300's look-alikes.



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 3115 times:
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Quoting 747classic (Thread starter):
- Are pictures available (on the net) of the actual modification in the Boeing factory in Seattle. I can remember that some were publicized in KLM magazines.

I've looked several times for pictures of this mod on the net and found nothing. I remember seeing the pix in Aviation Week and Space Technology back in the 80s. More recently I've seen them as a greyed out background for an ad in the same mag - sorry I don't recall which issue or who the ad was for.



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User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1448 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3080 times:



Quoting 747classic (Reply 2):
Thank you for searching on the Internet for me
However all these STC's are from the (inside) extension of the upper-deck to put pax. seats in the former lounge area. During this modification also extra pax. windows and one extra emergency escape door was added on the left side. Most 747-100's and early 747-200's were delivered with one RH emergency escape door and 3 windows at each side. All above mentioned STC's were performed around 1980.
KLM performed this modification on 747-206B aircraft, powered by JT9D-7W engines.
These aircraft did not receive the upper-deck extension to make them 747-300's look-alikes.

You are absolutely correct and I should have thought of that. The SUD mod installs Type A exits also and not Type I. This has been quite the conundrum and intrigued me very much as I have not found a direct STC or TC amendment that covers these aircraft.

I looked further into the TCDS and saw that the -100/200 series upper decks are limited to either 32 or 45 if they are in compliance with either Special Condition 25-61-NW-1 or 25-71-NW-3. The latter allowed 45 if there was a straight stairway versus the spiral stairway. Since the -200 SUD mod is not part of the TC and does not appear to be an STC, they chose not to increase the upper deck capacity to 110 match the 100 SUD and -300. It looks like the mod was strictly structural to provide more floor space only and not a higher passenger capacity. I now think it was performed under Boeing SB and considered part of the TC certification basis. It almost certainly required an AFM change however.

If I remember correctly, I thought I read that the first or first couple of aircraft where modified in Everett and KLM did the rest in-house.

If anyone else has more detailed technical knowledge of how these aircraft were modified from a certification standpoint, I would like to know.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1721 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

I think that it was driven by an SB.

If so, the updated IPC would reflect that.

Tod


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 3023 times:



Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 4):
If I remember correctly, I thought I read that the first or first couple of aircraft where modified in Everett and KLM did the rest in-house.

All aircraft were modified in Everett.
I am asking all these technical/operational questions because I am searching for all relevant data about the classic 747-200/300 aircraft that were flown under the dutch register.
After working almost 30 years with KL and MP as a 747-F/E on all these aircraft , there are still some loose ends. In the end I am planning to write a book about this subject.

Relevant aircraft :
747-206B PH-BUA,B,C.D,E,F and G
747-206B(SUD)SF PH-BUH and I ( most modified 747 aircraft in the world )
747-206M(SUD) PH-BUK,L,M,N,T
747-206B(SUD) PH-BUO,P,R
747-306M PH-BUU,V,W
747-21AC PH-MCE,F
747-228F PH-MCN

In advance thanks for the cooperation



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineDH106 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3017 times:
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Quoting 747classic (Reply 6):
Relevant aircraft :
747-206B PH-BUA,B,C.D,E,F and G

PH-BUF clearly wasn't around at the time of these mods.



...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tanhauser Gate....
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 3008 times:



Quoting DH106 (Reply 7):
PH-BUF clearly wasn't around at the time of these mods.

I was only explaining why I was interested in detailed data of all 747-200/300's, registered under the Dutch register. To be exactly to the point : I operated all these aircraft, except PH-BUF, because I joined KLM in 1978.
But I am still looking for all data over the actual SUD-modification of the CF-6 powered 747-206B aircraft. My file is not complete on this point.
All comments are welcome.



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineKL5147 From Netherlands, joined Aug 2005, 311 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2923 times:



Quoting 747classic (Reply 6):
All aircraft were modified in Everett.

AFAIK BUA/B/C/D/E/G were modified in Wichita.
The others in Everett.
Since you worked at EHAM you probably know the dates in the file below.
I got them for the PW powered a/c from a -former- KLM BWK.
There might be a variation in "to/from" Boeing dates, since they are -as I recall- given for departure/arrival at EHAM. So they might differ from the actual arrival/departure in the US
Big version: Width: 850 Height: 1169 File size: 123kb
Upperdeck modifiactions of KLM 747's (PW & GE)


btw, Welcome to A-net!

[Edited 2009-08-18 12:08:06]


"The world is just a click away!"
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2012 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2906 times:

The exact dates of the lounge to pax. modification of the upper deck of the PW-powered aircraft were not known to me, thanks.
If you have some info about the STC or pictures of the actual SUD modification in Seattle , pls. let me know.

regards Peter.



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
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