Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Mtow On The Longest AA Flight  
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5846 times:

Having into account DEL-ORD is 15 hr 25 min according to aa.com, I'm surprised how restricted the MTOW must be on this leg, specially for a simple 777-200ER.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alexander Karmazin



My questions:

1.- Does anybody know on this board what's the exact restriction in the ORD-DEL-ORD leg?

2.- Being AA a key customer for Boeing ...Is there any chance for Boing about to get a new AA order for the 777-200LR?

3.- Is performing well the Indian market for AA?

Thanks in advance and sorry if it's already been discussed before.


Time flies! Enjoy life!
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineElmoTheHobo From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

1. I can't speak to any technical aspects of the flight.

2. Boeing and American had a little "disagreement" in the late 1990s about the 777NGs. American opted to used RR powered 777s, Boeing made GE the exclusive engine provider on the -200LR and -300ER.

To show it's unhappiness, American went and signed an MoU with Airbus for A340-500s, which are, as we know RR powered. Of course this was nothing more than a PR stunt, and it was nearly a decade ago (Singapore Air Show, 2000)

With that said, American ought to have followed in Delta's footsteps and ordered the -200LR. There are several routes in the network that could use it (Dallas-Hong Kong, Dallas-Dubai, Miami-Johannesburg, Chicago-Mumbai, etc...). It would add a new fleet type and require a new maintenance program for the GE engines.

Yes there is a chance, it did get much smaller when they ordered the 787 IMO. There is also a chance of snow in Los Angeles from time to time. Who knows.

3. Well, it's (still) flying, something that can't be said of Nagoya, Osaka, Moscow (year round), and Beijing.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5618 times:



Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
1.- Does anybody know on this board what's the exact restriction in the ORD-DEL-ORD leg?

Not to say it's "unrestricted", however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round.

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
3.- Is performing well the Indian market for AA?

*Very* strong performer in premium cabin bookings. Seasonal loads in Y-cabin, but consistently high loads in premium cabins.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Miami-Johannesburg

The 772ER might be able to do this anyway. It's a good 300 miles shorter than JNB-ATL, and would most likely be shorter than 16 hours on the block time.

The concern, however, is JNB's field elevation. Engine-out takeoff performance might not allow nonstop with 92,000# or 95,000# thrust engines... though, I'm just spitballing on that one.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2076 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5600 times:

.

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
Having into account DEL-ORD is 15 hr 25 min according to aa.com, I'm surprised how restricted the MTOW must be on this leg, specially for a simple 777-200ER.

In ORD the MTOW (structural) will be the limiting factor. (or it must be very HOT weather)
In DEL the perf. lim TOW in most cases will be the limiting factor (HOT and High airport), especially for the 777-200ER



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24629 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5585 times:

There are significantly longer 772ER nonstops than AA's ORD-DEL. For example, CO uses the 772ER EWR-HKG which is 500 nm further.

ORD-DEL 6503 nm
EWR-HKG 7009 nm

Quoting SKY1 (Thread starter):
surprised how restricted the MTOW must be on this leg, specially for a simple 777-200ER.

Why would MTOW be restricted? I can see why they might have to restrict payload to maximize fuel carried on the longest routes, but the only reason I can think of for restricting maximum takeoff weight would be possible runway length restrictions. And westbound DEL-ORD is no doubt the more critical sector due to headwinds and high temperatures much of the year at DEL. Whether that would require a reduced MTOW for a 772 from DEL I have no idea.


User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3915 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5585 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
Not to say it's "unrestricted", however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round.

how can you be sure of this???



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2076 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5563 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
Not to say it's "unrestricted", however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round

100% loadfactor means MZFW ? or are you calculating with all seats occupied?



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineMd94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

I flew ORD-DEL round trip a few weeks ago and spent some time speaking with the Captain during the flight on his break. He said they take off with a full fuel load and did not mention anything about having to weight restrict any. I did not specifically ask him but it was my understanding of the conversation they do not have to.

He said the only real problems they have is on the return flight to ORD with the winds and the potential to divert for fuel if they cross the threshold below minimums. We crossed the threshold (somewhere over very northern Canada) at 200 lbs over, so we squeaked by. He said this is unusual but we had to do a maximum rate of climb out of DEL to altitude due to a change in routing over Pakistan. Plus we had to taxi to a different runway because the winds shifted. It was an interesting conversation and I appreciated the Captain's time.



72?, 732/3/7/8, 763/4, 773, 744, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/82, CH47, F16D,
User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5510 times:



Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
To show it's unhappiness, American went and signed an MoU with Airbus for A340-500s, which are, as we know RR powered. Of course this was nothing more than a PR stunt, and it was nearly a decade ago (Singapore Air Show, 2000)

Thanks for the input, I didn't know that.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
With that said, American ought to have followed in Delta's footsteps and ordered the -200LR. There are several routes in the network that could use it (Dallas-Hong Kong, Dallas-Dubai, Miami-Johannesburg, Chicago-Mumbai, etc...).

I agree. Also with the -LR, AA could fly non-stop to key Asian destinations such as BKK or SIN


Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Yes there is a chance, it did get much smaller when they ordered the 787 IMO

I think you're agree, but let's to see what is gonna happen.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Well, it's (still) flying, something that can't be said of Nagoya, Osaka, Moscow (year round), and Beijing

It's strange a route from the chinese capital to the US can't have good loads. What happened with the PEK services?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
however AA's 777-223/ER's can operate DEL-ORD at 100% load-factor year round.

Are you sure?

Quoting 747classic (Reply 3):
In DEL the perf. lim TOW in most cases will be the limiting factor (HOT and High airport), especially for the 777-200ER

No wonder why DEL-ORD leaves at 12:15 a.m.  Wink



Time flies! Enjoy life!
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4741 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting SKY1 (Reply 8):
No wonder why DEL-ORD leaves at 12:15 a.m.

This must be one of the main reasons why a lot of long haul flights from DEL leave after midnight. It cools down a bit allowing for better performance.


User currently offlineDtw757 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1552 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4194 times:

The planned takeoff weight for ORD-DEL yesterday was 646000 lbs and DEL-ORD was 646900 lbs. The actuals were a few thousand less.


721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,388,146,CR2,7,ERJ,
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7478 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4124 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 2):
*Very* strong performer in premium cabin bookings. Seasonal loads in Y-cabin, but consistently high loads in premium cabins.

If AA had a lower cost structure, ORD-DEL would be a star. However because AA's costs are so high, it loses money as often as it makes it. Its sad because loads are very high on this route in F and Y and pretty good in J (of paying pax).

That being said, at least for now, this flight isnt going anywhere.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8369 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3818 times:



Quoting 747classic (Reply 6):

100% loadfactor means MZFW ?

Certainly not. That is not what 100% load factor means. It means 100% of seats can be occupied by passengers, and their bags can be carried below. On an AA 777 this is much below MZFW.

I discussed the flight with my friend yesterday who says she does not think AA's cabin service is very competitive with others exit DEL. But AA's connections to corporate America probably keep the route healthy.


User currently offlineSKY1 From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 879 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3681 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
There are significantly longer 772ER nonstops than AA's ORD-DEL. For example, CO uses the 772ER EWR-HKG which is 500 nm further.

Both, EWR and HKG are on the sea level, unlike DEL. I know DEL is not very high (about 350 m) but I see logical American's flight leaves at midnight time in order to minimize the payload restriction avoiding the warmest temperature at DEL, specially during the daytime in summer time

Quoting Md94 (Reply 7):
He said they take off with a full fuel load



Quoting Md94 (Reply 7):
We crossed the threshold (somewhere over very northern Canada) at 200 lbs over, so we squeaked by. He said this is unusual but we had to do a maximum rate of climb out of DEL to altitude due to a change in routing over Pakistan.

A maximum rate of climb having a 777 full of fuel? Was the flight full of pax. that day?

Quoting Dtw757 (Reply 10):
The planned takeoff weight for ORD-DEL yesterday was 646000 lbs and DEL-ORD was 646900 lbs. The actuals were a few thousand less.

According to Boeing, the MTOW of 777-200ER is in 656,000 lbs (297,500 kgs) ...so very close to the maximum.

It looks like clear there is a minimum restriction or not restriction at all on the payload because the flight leaves at night time



Time flies! Enjoy life!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Mtow On The Longest AA Flight
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
AA Phasing Out Steam Gauges On The 80 posted Tue Jun 22 2004 16:11:04 by LMP737
Flight And W & B Sheets On The Net? posted Thu May 2 2002 13:56:01 by Gullfaxi
Flight Plans On The Net? posted Tue Mar 20 2001 22:51:18 by Superslushy
What Is Vmo On The 73G? posted Fri Aug 21 2009 22:48:59 by Brons2
What Is This On The Wing? ( OS A319) posted Wed Jul 22 2009 06:43:20 by OHLHD
Rubber On The Runway posted Fri May 29 2009 19:16:43 by Lrdc9
Weather Effects On The Ramp posted Wed May 13 2009 01:10:13 by COTPARampGuy
Point Of The One Window On The 777F posted Sat May 9 2009 13:54:05 by N104UA
Taxing On The Left Lane On A Two Way Taxiway posted Mon Apr 27 2009 03:25:01 by AA757MIA
Tid-bit On The 777 GE 90 Engine posted Thu Mar 5 2009 18:07:48 by Richiemo

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format