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Mad Dog Aft Stairs?  
User currently onlinePWMRamper From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 623 posts, RR: 3
Posted (5 years 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 5738 times:

I noticed this over the past week at PWM when Delta brings in its MD-88's.

The stairs at the back of the aircraft are lowered to the ground and remain lowered until the plane pushes back.

Any reason for this?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2191 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5720 times:
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Perhaps they are airing out the cabin, people do fart a lot when flying and many have never heard of "shower" or "deodorant"...  Wink


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17041 posts, RR: 66
Reply 2, posted (5 years 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 5715 times:

Speculation:
1. Airing out the cabin as CRJ900 says.
2. Prevent the aircraft from falling on its bum-bum in case the CoG moves too far aft during loading and unloading.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offline744lover From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5656 times:

I'm not sure if this is the reason,

But on the 727 we lowered the AFT stairs in order to prevent tail tipping. Maybe on the Mad Dog this should be the reason too...


Just my 2 cents!
744lover


User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (5 years 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5652 times:



Quoting PWMRamper (Thread starter):
The stairs at the back of the aircraft are lowered to the ground and remain lowered until the plane pushes back.

Probably so the cleaners can come up the aft stairs and clean the cabin as people are leaving, I know that is what we do AAt my little airline. As for tipping back, they load and unload the fwd pit first. We also have to have 5000 pounds of fuel in the ceneter tank to move an -80.

But is differenet from company to company.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently onlinePWMRamper From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 623 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

Well I was curious about the cleaning so I sat and watched and nobody used the stairs...

...tail-tipping sounds interesting, are the MD-88's tailheavy?


User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1328 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5507 times:



Quoting PWMRamper (Thread starter):
I noticed this over the past week at PWM when Delta brings in its MD-88's.

When I worked the DL ramp at PWM, we'd use the rear stairs for the cabin service guys to access the aircraft. It saved turn time when the guys could access the plane as soon as it came to a stop at the gate, rather then wait in the jetway for 10-15 minutes waiting for passengers to get off.


User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

The reason of the aft stairs is a few things.

1st is in case of an emergency at the gate and for people to get a quick escape in the back of the plane without having to deploy the aft cone and slide.

2nd is like what people said before is for cabin cleaning for quick turns.

When cleaning the planes for rons thats the reason we leave the stairs down in case of an emergency and if we have no working ac we open the back door to get some wind in as well.

But the main reason is in case of an emergency to let people escape in the back of the plane quickly instead of running over people to the front.


User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5492 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):



Quoting 744lover (Reply 3):



Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 5):

I dont ever recall a MD-88 tipping over. The 727 was tail heavy because of the 3rd engine on its tail and all the bags in the aft. I could be wrong on this one though but I'm trying to remember if I ever heared of the MD-88 being tail heavy which I cant recall, so I think its just in case of emergencys and another use of an exit if the getway breaks down.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 45
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5489 times:



Quoting 744lover (Reply 3):
But on the 727 we lowered the AFT stairs in order to prevent tail tipping. Maybe on the Mad Dog this should be the reason too...

Not a problem for the MD-80.

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 4):
Probably so the cleaners can come up the aft stairs and clean the cabin as people are leaving, I know that is what we do AAt my little airline.

It's done first for emergency egress while at the gate (aft door/tailcone disarmed) and for ease of access for cabin service personnel.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 5):
Well I was curious about the cleaning so I sat and watched and nobody used the stairs...

...tail-tipping sounds interesting, are the MD-88's tailheavy?

It's a procedure at many if not most MD-80 operators for potential ground egress considerations.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 6):
When I worked the DL ramp at PWM, we'd use the rear stairs for the cabin service guys to access the aircraft. It saved turn time when the guys could access the plane as soon as it came to a stop at the gate, rather then wait in the jetway for 10-15 minutes waiting for passengers to get off.

 checkmark  Yep; it's a big time saver.

Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 7):
1st is in case of an emergency at the gate and for people to get a quick escape in the back of the plane without having to deploy the aft cone and slide.

Jose nailed it!  Smile


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

The aft stairs will not support the plane like those on a 727. If they are down and you lift the nose, well just leave the badge on your way out.

User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5308 times:



Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 10):

HAHAHA very true.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5201 times:



Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 10):
The aft stairs will not support the plane like those on a 727.

True. The DC-9/MD-80 series ventral stairs won't support the aircraft because there is no need for them to, unlike the 727.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 10):
If they are down and you lift the nose, well just leave the badge on your way out.

That made me laugh out loud! Thanks!  Smile


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Looks like path of access thats all.The aft stair won't provide the purpose of a tail support assy.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1882 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5073 times:
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Per Delta GOM the main reason for the MD-88 aft stairs lowering is to prevent tail-tipping of the aircraft.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5063 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 14):

Per Delta GOM the main reason for the MD-88 aft stairs lowering is to prevent tail-tipping of the aircraft.

Is there a ref to that in the official documents.
regds
MEL...



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4981 times:



Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 14):
Per Delta GOM the main reason for the MD-88 aft stairs lowering is to prevent tail-tipping of the aircraft.

Interesting because per Douglas MD-80 AMM 52-63-00-0 Par 2 B . "Warning: Do Not permit Extended aft strairway to support weight of aircraft. Tail jack should be installed when performing maintenance on aircraft to prevent injury to personnel or damage to aircraft." This is in big lettering and high lighted in red.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
It's a procedure at many if not most MD-80 operators for potential ground egress considerations.



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 9):
It's done first for emergency egress while at the gate (aft door/tailcone disarmed) and for ease of access for cabin service personnel.

I work for the largest MD-80 operator in the world and we do not have this procedure in place. Infact most of the time the stairs are not even openned for a turn around or cleaning crew as stated before. We only open them when the airplane is on a hard stand and there is no stand for the L1 door to get into the airplane.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4525 posts, RR: 18
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4971 times:

The 727 rear stairs have hydraulic 'arms' that lock over centre and these will support the Aircraft and prevent the nose rising.


This was a required walk around check for me as a Second Officer in another life..


As stated the MD80 stairs cannot do the same.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4911 times:



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 16):
Interesting because per Douglas MD-80 AMM 52-63-00-0 Par 2 B . "Warning: Do Not permit Extended aft strairway to support weight of aircraft. Tail jack should be installed when performing maintenance on aircraft to prevent injury to personnel or damage to aircraft." This is in big lettering and high lighted in red.



Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
The 727 rear stairs have hydraulic 'arms' that lock over centre and these will support the Aircraft and prevent the nose rising.

I don't think an Air stair will be build to take the weight of a tipping without contributing to added damage to the mechanism.Its the function of a Tail support assembly.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4525 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4908 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):


Quoting Max Q (Reply 17):
The 727 rear stairs have hydraulic 'arms' that lock over centre and these will support the Aircraft and prevent the nose rising.


I don't think an Air stair will be build to take the weight of a tipping without contributing to added damage to the mechanism.Its the function of a Tail support assembly.

Looking at your profile I do not see any qualification on the B727, do you even have any experience on the type ? !


Your thoughts 'hawk21' are only that and amount to pure speculation on your part. I flew this Aircraft for eight years and over 6000 hours. I suggest a little research next time before revealing your lack of knowledge !


The rear Airstairs on the B727, with the hydraulic arms locked over centre will prevent tail tipping, they are designed and certified as such and will certainly not 'contribute to mechanism damage'


If you ever have the privilege to examine them up close you will realise how rugged (like the rest of the Aircraft) they are.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4883 times:



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
If you ever have the privilege to examine them up close you will realise how rugged (like the rest of the Aircraft) they are.

Agreed.... The stairs on teh 727 are built like a tank, like the 27 itself. You can really tell the difference when running up the DC9/80 stairs. It feels/sounds like you are running on a tin can.



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4877 times:



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
If you ever have the privilege to examine them up close you will realise how rugged (like the rest of the Aircraft) they are.

25 pumps on the hand pump to retract the stairs, will no hydraulic pressure. Learn early in my brief 727 career. Pump up the actuator and then pull the handle.

Also you can tell how much they support the aft end when you have to lean into the hold open rods to get them to go over center and lock.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineJoseKMLB From United States of America, joined May 2008, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4841 times:



Quoting Max Q (Reply 19):
The rear Airstairs on the B727, with the hydraulic arms locked over centre will prevent tail tipping, they are designed and certified as such and will certainly not 'contribute to mechanism damage'

That was the big thing with Delta they always said to lower the aft stairs before loading/offloading and fueling of the plane so the tail would not tip over.


User currently offlineSfotom From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4804 times:

I have worked very little on the DC9/ MD80 airframe and I have never worked for Delta. I do have some experience on the 727.

The 727 200 airstairs locked down to prevent tail tipping, the 727 100 did not (tail tip on the 100 was not as much a problem)

As 727 200 tail tipping was such a problem, I can easily see an established airline requiring rear stairs on all aircraft lowered at the gate including DC9/ MD80 aircraft in their General Practices & Procedures manual (or what ever Delta calls it) just to ensure that it was always done on the 27. I've seen many examples of airline procedures established because of one particular aircraft, and after that aircraft is long gone the procedures are still in place. The people that created the procedures are likewise retried and gone and no one still around is willing to take responsibility to remove a procedure they do not understand.

It could also be a standard practice for servicing efficiency that just wasn't made use of the day PWMRamper was watching.


User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (5 years 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4755 times:

I work for DL. I see MD88's at my station every night. The stairs are never down when get to the airplane. I don't know what ramps SOP's are, but I doubt putting down the aft stairs on the MD88 are one of them. If it is in the SOP, my ramp guys are not doing it.

I worked structures on MD88 HMV for many years and on the 727. The stairs on the 727 will prevent the plane from tipping on it's ass, it can be loaded so it will tip. The stairs on the MD80 can not. I don't think you can load the MD so that it will tip, but I'm not sure.


25 HAWK21M : Agreed about B727 Experience.....but reply 16 is to be believed too. cheers. regds MEL.
26 JoseKMLB : Your guys should be putting down the aft stairs when the plane pulls into the gate just in case of emergency's. You rather have people getting out sa
27 Boeing767mech : SO before I go and tell my manager we are doing it all wrong, tell me how do you get the people out of a 707,737,747,757,767,777,787,DC-10/MD-11 or a
28 Max Q : Er, just to clarify, the B727 and the MD80 are two very different Aircraft, It's usually quite apparent. I know because I flew them both ! And it's t
29 JoseKMLB : So why do thy lower the stairs in ATL its not because its tail heavy or for cabin cleaning when they have trucks for cabin cleaning? Its just that pl
30 Post contains images HAWK21M : If you remember I was reverting to your accusation on my experience on the B727......Memory lapse I guess    Wasn't the topic about the MD80   Jus
31 FlyDeltaJets : I apologize it wasnt the GOM that said that, it was my former trainer. He was incorrectly informed as the GOM states that the stairs are not designed
32 WNCrew : JoseKMBL with all due respect your reasoning is incorrect. Having the AFT stirs down has nothing to do with evacuation. I have been a FA for two carr
33 JoseKMLB : Well from DL ops they have always told us to put the stairs down right away when the plane comes in just in case of emergency's because they rather th
34 Max Q : Your statement 'Hawk21' you do not specify an Aircraft type so best to not opine on those you know nothing about !
35 WNCrew : How would you check for that? The door is not really "armed" in the classical sense, there are simply TWO interior operating handles to choose from,
36 JoseKMLB : The peep hole on the door if the flap on the back of the door is not covering the hole then the door is safe to open. If you see something blocking t
37 Boeing767mech : If your walking up the airstairs that you have already dropped from the ground( and yes there is a way to drop them from the inside of the airplane,
38 JoseKMLB : Yeah but we been told to make sure that the FAs put up the flap on the back of the door before we enter. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking ab
39 B727LVR : Yeah, just because you dropped the air stairs doesn't mean the tail cone jettison is automatically disarmed. I have seen the tailcone "jettison," bas
40 JoseKMLB : Thats what I'm saying before we enter we have to make sure they are disarmed.
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