Xero9 From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1878 times:
Please forgive me if this is the wrong forum to post this in.. I had thought aviation hobby, but that seems mostly Flight Sim related.
So I have started my flight training for PPL, with the hopes to get CPL eventually. Anyway, in the pilot training record book we were given, it mentioned spins, so upon googling this, I read several sites saying that it was no longer required (yay for me). Turns out all of those sites must have been talking about the US, because according to the flight school it's still required in Canada.
Now I love aviation, and have since I was young, I'm starting to have doubts. I have a pretty weak stomach for things like roller coasts and things like that. Are there any tips any of you might have that have been in the same situation? I had thought about not eating the night before, but then I heard it's better to eat 2 hours or so before. I've never actually thrown up due to any kind of motion, but I feel like it takes a very high level of concentration to control myself.
Anyway, sorry for the long winded post on what seems like a simple question.
Any thoughts, suggestions, stories, etc would be much appreciated!
DashTrash From United States, joined Aug 2006, 456 posts, RR: 2 Reply 1, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1852 times:
Spins are no big deal. Just like anything that happens in an airplane, take a second to analyze the situation before reacting to it. Spins are easy to get out of in most aircraft. Try spinning a 172. You'll likely have to hold the airplane in the spin.
Keep in mind you'll have an instructor with you who has spun an airplane before. No worries man.
This is also better off in the tech / ops section.
JBirdAV8r From United States, joined Jun 2001, 3083 posts, RR: 21 Reply 3, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1802 times:
Quoting Xero9 (Thread starter): Are there any tips any of you might have that have been in the same situation?
First of all, welcome to the wide world of aviation!
I'll tell you this--I'm a pretty big wuss. I was extremely nervous to practice landings even when my instructor was doing most of the heavy lifting there. I was flat-out terrified of stalls. And a spin? Don't get me started!
I did, however, work through those feelings, and became an instructor myself--teaching stalls and spins (and landings) comfortably and easily. If I can do it, you certainly can! Your stress and trepidation about spins will soon subside into a healthy respect for them--which is a Good Thing.
My stress relief has always come from studying the heck out of things that concern me. I read every book chapter on stall/spin aerodynamics I could, learned how they felt and knew the recovery procedures cold, asked lots of questions, and finally asked my instructor to detail everything he was doing as he demonstrated them to me. Worked like a charm.
Are stalls and spins my favorite thing to do? No. But they don't send my heart into overdrive anymore.
Also keep in mind that a normal spin in a training airplane is a completely docile event and the spin itself is very low-stress on the aircraft. DashTrash is completely correct...I have yet to fly a 172 that won't fly itself out of a spin.
Have fun! You'll be great. The feeling is "different" but it's much more tame than a roller coaster IMHO. Low-stress on you, low-stress on the plane, and a nifty technique to learn, too.
Rcair1 From United States, joined Oct 2009, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1796 times:
I agree. Spins are actually fun - and you should know how to do them. Oh those many years ago with I got my PP - spins were not required (US), but my instructor and my check instructor were both aerobatics instructors - so spins were a must. My first one was on my 1st phase check, which I think was at 5 hrs or so.
I too am not a fan of roller coasters, or any ride that goes roundy-roundy - but I never had an issue in a spin - it is not (typically) all that violent. The T34 was a bit more exciting....
FLY2HMO From United States, joined Jan 2004, 4076 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1760 times:
Quoting Xero9 (Thread starter): it mentioned spins, so upon googling this, I read several sites saying that it was no longer required (yay for me).
I think every pilot should experience a (controlled) spin at least once in their life. It's very different pretending to do it and just talking about it than actually doing it.
Quoting Xero9 (Thread starter): but then I heard it's better to eat 2 hours or so before.
Depends on the person. I'd say just have a light snack before hand. Definitely don't go with neither an empty stomach or a stuffed one.
I've spun both a Super Decathlon and a C172. Bear in mind, I'm not the type that gets any motion sickens whatsoever or any problems like that, I'm very resistant. In the Decathlon I did over 10 spins in one hot summer day and never felt queezy until the last two, and after a minute of straight and level flight I was fine. The Decathlon is a very smooth, stable spinner, which is a given, since it's aerobatic.
I did NOT enjoy spins in the C172 though. The new C172 NAV IIIs are VERY hard to spin (we had a dedicated spin plane without rear seats for proper weight and balance, and even then...) which is, IMO, both a good thing and a bad thing. It would take me and my CFI several tries to get in a fully developed spin, and once we did I thought (call me crazy if you want) it was more violent than in a Decathlon. After two spins I felt more queezy in the Cessna than after 10 spins in the Decathlon, and the conditions were exactly the same. Most of it probably because, for one, it isn't an aerobatic plane, and also due to the side by side seat configuration you feel much more lateral forces, whereas in the Decathlon you are sitting in the center of rotation.
I hope I didn't scare you too much. I loved the spins in the Decathlon. But I don't miss doing them in the Cessna.
Happiness is just an illusion caused by the temporary absence of reality
RedFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 30 Reply 6, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1735 times:
Quoting Xero9 (Thread starter): Are there any tips any of you might have that have been in the same situation?
Although I love rollercoaster rides or anything that turns one upside down, I was never a fan of spins and was glad that it wasn't required as part of my PPL training. I think the reason I feared it so much was because I had heard so many stories about small planes crashing after the pilot stalled the aircraft (I realize a spin is not necessarily the outcome of a stall). In any event, I was always bothered by this phobia so for my 40th birthday I treated myself to a one-hour aerobatic ride in a Pitts. Besides being the ultimate thrill ride (well, F-15 or Su-27 excluded), the instructor pilot put the thing into a spin a few times and let me recover from it. After that I never again feared spins. The flight was well worth the $400 cost and it also gave me a better appreciation for other aspects of flying, such as recovery from an upset situation. Since you're going to be spending several thousands of dollars on your flight training, I'd say set aside a few hundred dollars for a one-hour aerobatic flight. It will be well worth it and it may very well help you get rid of your fear, just as it did with me.
FighterPilot From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 25 Reply 7, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1707 times:
Spins aren't a required flight test item on the Canadian PPL flight test, however most if not all FTU's will train a student how to recover from a spin.
I too don't have the strongest stomach but what I found to work the best was eat before,wear loose but not baggy clothing, especially around your neck, as well as keeping well ventilated. having the air vents open to give you a nice cool breeze. I think the biggest thing thats goign to make you feel sick is the anticipation and anziety after the first one hopefully you'll know more of what to expect and won't be as worried.
Noelg From United Kingdom (England), joined Apr 2002, 2329 posts, RR: 21 Reply 8, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1700 times:
I turned up for one of my lessons on a beautiful clear day to be told "spins today Noel" - not what I was expecting at 9am on a Sunday morning (especially after eating a full English breakfast )
We climbed up to 9000ft (the highest to date I've been in a C152 and it took us about 20 minutes to get there), before the instructor put us into a spin. It was a very weird sensation, I just remember "falling" over the top with full left yaw, the next thing was we just dropped to a nose down position, and I can still remember the feeling that we weren't moving, but looking straight down to the ground (looking like Google Earth), and the ground was spinning round in circles but it felt like we weren't moving! The instructor (ex-RAF Buccaneer pilot) was completely calm and just like "Move us smoothly out of the spin", "Pull gently back on the controls" as if this were an everyday occurence
Needless to say that is the closest I have ever come to losing my breakfast when flying, but it wasn't "that" bad in hindsight
FLY2HMO From United States, joined Jan 2004, 4076 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1693 times:
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 6): Since you're going to be spending several thousands of dollars on your flight training, I'd say set aside a few hundred dollars for a one-hour aerobatic flight. It will be well worth it and it may very well help you get rid of your fear, just as it did with me.
Or even better, find a place that offers advanced upset attitude recovery training. That's the course I took in the Decathlon and it was mandatory at my school. Not only is it fun, but you learn a lot of life saving skills and you'll become much better at stick and rudder skills, literally.
Happiness is just an illusion caused by the temporary absence of reality
FighterPilot From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 25 Reply 11, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1671 times:
Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 9): Or even better, find a place that offers advanced upset attitude recovery training. That's the course I took in the Decathlon and it was mandatory at my school. Not only is it fun, but you learn a lot of life saving skills and you'll become much better at stick and rudder skills, literally.
One of the plus' of training on the Zlin 242L here at Sault College we do three EMT (emergency maneuver training) flights all about unusual attitudes and recoveries. Really neat to see what you can and can't do in an aircraft.
Only tip, get a detailed briefing from a qualified instructor, get formal in flight instruction, and apply that, it is easy.
I would not rely on the Internet for flight instruction (including a.net). Feel free to use it as "background" information.
Quoting FighterPilot (Reply 7): Spins aren't a required flight test item on the Canadian PPL flight test, however most if not all FTU's will train a student how to recover from a spin.
I think it is still a Canadian CPL flight test item.
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N353SK From United States, joined Jun 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1599 times:
To the OP, it sounds like you're a lot more afraid of getting sick and throwing up than you are of actually spinning an aircraft. I've never experienced that "stomach is dropping" feeling you get on a roller coaster while spinning. It's also always been the case that whenever I was the one performing the spin I never got sick because somehow my mind was connected to the maneuver. My advice is to get that fresh air vent blasting in your face and have fun.
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 13604 posts, RR: 68 Reply 16, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1583 times:
Quoting Xero9 (Thread starter): I read several sites saying that it was no longer required (yay for me).
Not that I'm a pilot but I would never say no to more training in unusual flight regimes. Even if it isn't required it is probably a useful experience.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
Swiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2513 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1582 times:
Quoting Xero9 (Thread starter): Are there any tips any of you might have that have been in the same situation?
If you have a weak stomach you should take a bag with you on all flights - it's not just spins/stalls/steep turns that will make you sick.
As has been said, just take a second first to think. Your reflex will be to turn your control column against the direction of the spin. This will make one wing stall more than the other, and you may even end up inverted. I have done this by mistake. It happens.
Work out the direction of your spin, centralise the control column, use opposite rudder to stop the spin and you will end up in a dive. Idle power, then gently pull out of the dive, ensuring you don't panic. If you yank back on the control column you may stall again, so do it slowly. There is a tollerance for height loss in spins/stalls. Don't wory about that the first few times you do it, just concentrate on the technique to start with, then you can get confidence and do it quicker.
As has also been stated, most training a/c don't want to spin and in a lot of cases if you simply 'let go', you will just end up in a dive that you can pull out of.
Xero9 From Canada, joined Feb 2007, 43 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1578 times:
Ahh thank you all for your responses. It actually has given me some comfort, except maybe FLY2HMO
Quoting N353SK (Reply 15): To the OP, it sounds like you're a lot more afraid of getting sick and throwing up than you are of actually spinning an aircraft
You nailed it. I have no fear that the plane is going to rip itself apart, or that we won't be able to recover from it. I really really just don't want to lose my lunch!
I will keep you guys posted though.
Also, as far as the spin requirement for PPL in Canada goes.. Is it possible schools are required to teach it, but like in the US, on the actual exam you just need to explain to the examiner how to recover, but not actually perform it? I'm sure when I get to the stage where I'm riding with a Transport Canada examiner I will have no problem performing and recovering from a spin. Just a thought. I could be completely wrong.
2H4 From United States, joined Oct 2004, 8171 posts, RR: 65 Reply 19, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1554 times:
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Quoting Xero9 (Reply 18): I have no fear that the plane is going to rip itself apart
During my first spin, my biggest concern was approaching or exceeding Vne during the recovery. Because I had been practicing slow flight, stalls, and pattern work so much, I was used to relatively low amounts of wind noise.
Well, we never got close to Vne, but we did get pretty fast (for a 152) during recovery, and that spooked me. After the spin was brought to a halt, I pulled up very, very gently for fear of overstressing the airframe.
In hindsight, it would have been useful for my CFI to demonstrate a high-speed dive and recovery, simply to familiarize me with the sound and feel.
Also, go through the interior with a fine-toothed comb before your flight. Any pencils, gum, checklists, manuals, hoods, etc will go on flights of their own unless you remove or secure them beforehand.
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 13604 posts, RR: 68 Reply 20, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1524 times:
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19): Any pencils, gum, checklists, manuals, hoods, etc will go on flights of their own unless you remove or secure them beforehand. yes
ThirtyEcho From United States, joined Dec 2001, 1282 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1467 times:
OK, I'll admit that I go way back. I got my PPL over 50 years ago.
My first instructor was an ex-WWII instructor and we flew in a Luscombe 8E that was approved for 9Gs. Tough bird.
Before I soloed, I was instructed in spins, rolls and loops. A normal spin is a completely controlled maneuver like walking into a grocery store; enter when you like and exit when you like.
The sole considerations are to make sure that you are high enough for a recovery and are within the envelope. A spin with the weight aft of datum can become a flat spin and, then, you had better be Chuck Yeager.
A normal flight training spin is just a couple of controlled turns followed by a normal stall recovery. In fact, the RAF during WWII advised pilots in air combat induced spins to simply turn loose of the stick and let the airplane recover on its own.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 4556 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1382 times:
Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 22): In fact, the RAF during WWII advised pilots in air combat induced spins to simply turn loose of the stick and let the airplane recover on its own.
It WILL do that; I tried it.
Differences in handling between types aside, the C-172 most certainly will do that - I've done it twice. Let go of the yoke pitch and roll neutral AMAP, keep your feet neutral on the pedals and within about two to three thousand feet of altitude loss the spin will terminate and you'll find yourself in a more or less wings level dive. Amazing thing, airplane design is!
"Sentimentality plays with sweet intentions in place of good sense." - Jane Jacobs
FLY2HMO From United States, joined Jan 2004, 4076 posts, RR: 5 Reply 24, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1375 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 23): the C-172 most certainly will do that
IF the plane is in a favorable CG, that goes for (almost) any plane with positive stability.
I heard a first hand account of some idiots that rented a plane and decided to try and spin it, mind you they had less than 100hrs total time between the two and were fresh out of their PPL. The plane had almost full fuel, so it was definitely not in the utility category. So they got it to spin, and all was fine, until they could not recover. The spin was pretty flat according to them. Anyways, they ended up somehow recovering at around 500ft AGL.
Happiness is just an illusion caused by the temporary absence of reality
Dw747400 From United States, joined Aug 2001, 981 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (1 month 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1354 times:
Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 24): The plane had almost full fuel, so it was definitely not in the utility category.
Keep in mind that not all 172s are out of the utility category with full fuel. Most are not as horrendously overweight as what rolls off the line today, nor did they have as much fuel capacity.
172 is benign in spins, and based on my personal experience, as well as the experience of many other instructors with a lot more time than I, I would guess that your two new pilots did one of the following:
1) used improper technique throughout entry, the spin itself, and the attempted recovery in order to get the airplane in a position that would make it unable to recover on its own. Letting go could be what saved them...
2)exaggerated the story. I've met plenty of pilots who will say one thing that, for some reason or another, I can prove they did not do. For example, one pilot once bragged to me about landing a 152 in a 35 knot crosswind without realizing I was at the airport when he came in, noting the 20 knot wind and 10 knot crosswind component.
27 Moose135: I earned my PPL when I was in college, nearly 30 years ago, and never got to practice spin recoveries. But like just about every Air Force pilot, I ca
28 9VSIO: Anyone here ever spun a Hawker Hunter? One of my instructors (ex-ETPS) ranks it as one of the most terrifying things he has had to do, and certainly t
29 N353SK: I talked to a WWII veteran who spun a B-17. He said that he had spun every other aircraft he had ever flown, so on his first B-17 flight he put it int
30 FLY2HMO: True, I get the feeling that towards the end they were panicking and putting more energy on screaming like little girls than thinking rationally. Dam
31 2H4: Wow. That begs the question - what is the largest airplane that has ever been spun? 2H4
32 Rcair1: ... and has recovered from the spin. May be 2 different answers
33 2H4: Ah, yes indeed. The largest airplane to ever have entered and recovered from a spin. Good catch! 2H4
34 Rwessel: Well, to put a lower limit on the question: one of the B-17 prototypes was inadvertently spun - and recovered. 65,000lbs MTOW and 103ft span. The F-1
35 Starlionblue: Some of the larger fighter-bombers and smaller bombers have probably been spun. F-111 and Tu-22 come to mind.[Edited 2009-11-04 15:31:12]
36 Aaron747: Not even Pete Garrison could likely come up with the answer to this one.
37 DiamondFlyer: I've heard about the Cessna's being fairly benign in spins. I personally have done some spin training in a Diamond DA-20, which was a blast. It really
38 Rcair1: I seem to remember that spinning in a 152 from a full power-on stall was rather energetic, but that was a long, long time ago. Or maybe I'm rememberi
39 RedFlyer: While there's probably been a few "large" airplanes that have entered a spin, I doubt any of them ever recovered from it. I believe one of the proble
40 2H4: Absolutely. That all sounds logical. But the Tech/Ops trivia challenge to determine the largest remains. 2H4
41 Ferrypilot: It seems likely to me that it would have been a four engine bomber type in World War ll and occurring as a result of combat damage and/or hard maneuv
42 RedFlyer: My guess is going to be a 727. Wasn't there a NW 727 that, as a result of the pilots experimenting with the flap setting at cruise, caused the plane
43 Moose135: That was a TW 727, and I don't know that they ever entered a spin - I think they did get upside down, sort of rolled over and nosed down.
44 Soon7x7: If we are talking about the same flight I remember a 727 that had an inflight upset as the #7 slat deployed and rolled the jet over into a dive, subs
45 Moose135: That's the one. I remember that - for some reason, I thought it was a Russian aircraft (Aeroflot? but they didn't have A300s...) maybe over Paris? I
47 Moose135: That's true - the incident was years ago, and I don't know that I ever read much about it when it happened (certainly do remember the footage on TV).
48 SEATTLE: There was a story told to me from a tour guide when I worked at the Museum of Flight. It was a long time ago so forgive me for not having all the prop
49 PGNCS: Throttles - Idle Rudder and Ailerons - Neutral... Here's a tip: what you do NOT want to do before your first spin ride is to eat an entire package of
50 Bond007: What's much more important than how to recover from a spin, is how to avoid getting into a spin in the first place! Most probably most of the folks wh
51 Stratoduck: when i would demonstrate spins for CFI candidates, one of the entry methods i would show them would be an entry without any rudder input. i would set
52 Soku39: I do the same, except I have them do it at full power. It hammers the importance of right rudder home.
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