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Hold Short Line Question  
User currently offlineTheengineer From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 106 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

The other day I was flying with a friend of mine and I have a question about an incident that we were debating about.

Before takeoff there was a Cessna in front of us holding short the active runway on an uncontrolled field. The pilot announced that he was going to use the active and depart and crossed the hold short line. Right after he crossed another plane announced that they were on final and the Cessna decided to wait for them as they were pretty close. My question is: Is there a violation in this incident? The Cessna had passed the line and was basically on the runway. However I have to say that the plane on final made no announcements before. They also could not make a 180 back because we and another planes were holding short.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4909 times:

For the most part it is uncontrolled and there for there isn't so much violations that occur as there are pilots operating non-standard. There are pilots that will fly into uncontrolled airports without talking to anyone. I suppose if the FAA was watching and an unsafe situation occurred they could have the pilots go through retraining.

Doesn't sound like there was anything wrong with what happened. In fact probably the best thing that could have happened did, he waited. Imagine if both of them weren't talking to each other.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1630 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4815 times:



Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 2):
There are pilots that will fly into uncontrolled airports without talking to anyone. I suppose if the FAA was watching and an unsafe situation occurred they could have the pilots go through retraining.

Why? There is no legal requirement to use a radio at an airport that is pilot controlled. People seem to always forget that. May not happen all the time, but there are aircraft out there that have no radio equipment in them.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4816 times:



Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
hold short line

It's called a Hold Point, and once you pass it you are legally on the runway.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
My question is: Is there a violation in this incident?

Aircraft on final should have gone around. Runway occupied? Go around.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
They also could not make a 180 back because we and another planes were holding short.

?

By a "180 back" what do you mean? They can always go around, fly a circuit and land. Never would they turn 180 degrees around though.


User currently offlineLonghornmaniac From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4810 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 5):

By a "180 back" what do you mean? They can always go around, fly a circuit and land. Never would they turn 180 degrees around though.

He's referring to the plane on the ground, which, had he not been right behind it, could've done a 180 back beyond the hold short line and off the active.

Cheers,
Cameron


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4793 times:



Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 6):
He's referring to the plane on the ground, which, had he not been right behind it, could've done a 180 back beyond the hold short line and off the active.

Not come across that terminology before. I don't think it's official.

The wording below made me think he was still referring to the a/c on final.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
However I have to say that the plane on final made no announcements before. They also could not make a 180 back because we and another planes were holding short.



User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6118 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4609 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 5):
Not come across that terminology before. I don't think it's official.

I don't there's an official word for it, aside from "get off the runway."

Quote:

Main Entry: U-turn
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: about-face
Synonyms: U-ey, backtracking, change of heart, change of mind, change of plan, eating one's words, one-eighty, retraction, reversal, sea change, turnaround, volte-face




Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4576 times:

Why didn't the Cessna notice an airplane on short final? What if the plane on final was NORDO; this could have become an incident if the Cessna continued the takeoff and the plane on final was not paying attention. This is why you are supposed to do a visual check of the final approach path before heading onto the active - landing traffic always has the right of way.

Now I know it's possible to just miss things, so once the Cessna had passed the hold short line, once he became aware a plane was on final he should have "suggested" a go around to the plane on final while staying clear of the runway. This is the safest course of action IMO and as far as I know it's the only one that's legal.

[Edited 2009-11-22 06:18:27]


You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4555 times:



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 7):
Why didn't the Cessna notice an airplane on short final?

Yet another excellent example of why I always turn on all exterior lights, to be seen better.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 9, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4471 times:



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 7):
What if the plane on final was NORDO; this could have become an incident if the Cessna continued the takeoff and the plane on final was not paying attention.

They key there is "not paying attention." If you're NORDO, you need to be extra careful because you know that you can't announce your intentions to anybody, you need to rely on your own vision and that of others. If a NORDO pilot ran into a plane taking off, fault would be shared, but the NORDO pilot certainly would have failed in his duty to stay clear.

Tom.


User currently offlineTHEENGINEER From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4392 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 5):
Not come across that terminology before. I don't think it's official.

The wording below made me think he was still referring to the a/c on final.

What terminolgoy?? I guess you guys in Australia use a different language.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 4):
He's referring to the plane on the ground, which, had he not been right behind it, could've done a 180 back beyond the hold short line and off the active.

Precisely


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (5 years 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4366 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
There is no legal requirement to use a radio at an airport that is pilot controlled. People seem to always forget that. May not happen all the time, but there are aircraft out there that have no radio equipment in them.

Apparently, the airplane on final had enough of a radio to transmit his position once he saw the Cessna going onto the runway.

From the way the OP makes it sound, the aircraft did have a radio but neglected to use it until noticing that someone was on the runway. Unless there's some mitigating circumstance, that's just asking for trouble. It's not illegal, but it damn well should be. Just like a transponder - if you've got it, you've got to use it.

-Mir

[Edited 2009-11-22 17:17:51]


7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4352 times:



Quoting THEENGINEER (Reply 10):
What terminolgoy?? I guess you guys in Australia use a different language.

The term "180 back" in aviation.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4335 times:



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
People seem to always forget that. May not happen all the time, but there are aircraft out there that have no radio equipment in them.

They forget it because in the 21st Century and a world where aviation safety is paramount, it's seems ridiculous that aircraft aren't required to use radios. Personally, I don't care if you're flying a WWI trainer ... if you can afford to fly it, you can afford to install a cheap, lightweight transceiver (even a handheld is better than nothing).

Uncontrolled airfields are truly the place to watch the worst procedures and airmanship. My personal view is to fly at an uncontrolled airfield as you would fly at a controlled field (within reason). If ATC wouldn't clear you to do something, then why think it's safe to do it at an uncontrolled field?

OK, venting over  Smile

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1630 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4328 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
Uncontrolled airfields are truly the place to watch the worst procedures and airmanship. My personal view is to fly at an uncontrolled airfield as you would fly at a controlled field (within reason). If ATC wouldn't clear you to do something, then why think it's safe to do it at an uncontrolled field?

I much prefer flying at uncontrolled fields, as you don't have any ATC there to constantly be there to add a 3rd party to the situation. I'll trust my own two eyes, and my two ears, over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day. But, that said, there are a lot of dumb people out there.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4307 times:



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
I'll trust my own two eyes, and my two ears, over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day

Well, you should be trusting your own two eyes and two ears, whether there is a controller in the tower or not. More crashes are caused by pilot error than controller error, and many a crash has been avoided by having ATC ... not that I don't enjoy uncontrolled fields, but let's not pretend that they're 'safer' because ATC are not involved (even though you might not had meant that).


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1630 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (5 years 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4305 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 15):
Well, you should be trusting your own two eyes and two ears, whether there is a controller in the tower or not. More crashes are caused by pilot error than controller error, and many a crash has been avoided by having ATC ... not that I don't enjoy uncontrolled fields, but let's not pretend that they're 'safer' because ATC are not involved (even though you might not had meant that).

Agreed, they aren't safer because there is no ATC. But, there is one fewer channel that communication that has to be gone through to make it known as to your location and intentions.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineA346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1296 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4292 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
It's not illegal, but it damn well should be. Just like a transponder - if you've got it, you've got to use it.

Somewhat off topic, but the transponder law is actually a terrible one. Nothing puts people off installing a transponder quite like knowing that once it's there, they will have to use it 100% of the time. This is a concern for gliders which require a battery to run the transponder and therefore may become restricted by having one installed. You always have to consider the unintended consequences.



You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
User currently offlineP3Orion From United States of America, joined May 2006, 544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4290 times:



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
over some guy sipping on a cup of coffee any day.

You have no clue what controllers do. Do you.



"Did he say strap in or strap on?"
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4287 times:

Well the OP never mentioned how far past the HS line the other plane went but I'm assuming only a few feet, which at your average uncontrolled airport still probably gives you plenty of spacing. Had I been that pilot busting the HS line and still holding, I would've told the traffic on final that I was X number of feet past it but holding just as courtesy.

Quoting Theengineer (Thread starter):
My question is: Is there a violation in this incident?

Technically, yes. But at uncontrolled fields ehhh, you can fudge it a bit (not that you should)

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 1):

Doesn't sound like there was anything wrong with what happened. In fact probably the best thing that could have happened did, he waited. Imagine if both of them weren't talking to each other.

Agreed.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
I much prefer flying at uncontrolled fields, as you don't have any ATC there to constantly be there to add a 3rd party to the situation

I understand your point but honestly I prefer controlled airports. I still am very alert at either type of airport but I've had too many bad experiences with retired wannabe Vietnam aces that think its real cute to just cut you off on base, hot dog it in on final, land halfway down the runway, making me go around, all without saying a word on the damned radio at uncontrolled fields.  banghead 


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4272 times:



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 17):
Somewhat off topic, but the transponder law is actually a terrible one. Nothing puts people off installing a transponder quite like knowing that once it's there, they will have to use it 100% of the time. This is a concern for gliders which require a battery to run the transponder and therefore may become restricted by having one installed. You always have to consider the unintended consequences.

I'd be ok with some exceptions for aircraft not equipped with an electrical system.

But when your airplane is generating electricity, and you've got a radio - use the damn thing!

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1630 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4271 times:



Quoting P3Orion (Reply 18):

You have no clue what controllers do. Do you.

It was a joke, which clearly went over your head. I appreciate what you ATC folks do. But, like pilots, ATC make mistakes. And thus, I prefer to operate at uncontrolled airports.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4267 times:



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
But, like pilots, ATC make mistakes. And thus, I prefer to operate at uncontrolled airports.

Where, if you make a mistake, you don't have the help of ATC, who look out for you?


User currently offlineDAL7e7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 357 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (5 years 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4210 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 22):

Where, if you make a mistake, you don't have the help of ATC, who look out for you?

He's just stating his opinion...

I haven't had the opportunity to fly at a controlled field (AUO is uncontrolled) but I do think I prefer training at an uncontrolled field for the same reason DiamondFlyer prefers uncontrolled fields.


War Eagle!
Trey



DAL7e7 is wondering... Do pilots take crash courses?
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (5 years 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4193 times:



Quoting DAL7e7 (Reply 23):
I do think I prefer training at an uncontrolled field for the same reason DiamondFlyer prefers uncontrolled fields.

Do you really? Because "ATC make mistakes" ?
In all my years flying I don't think I can remember any pilot preferring uncontrolled fields because ATC make mistakes. It's usually because it's generally less hassle than a controlled field, and they find it easier because of less radio calls etc. ... of course, most of these advantages are due to the fact that generally low-traffic airports, by design, are uncontrolled ... if they were busy they'd have a tower. As for less radio calls - if you make the recommended radio calls at a non-towered airport, I'd argue you should actually make a lot more calls for a simple run around the pattern than if you were chatting with ATC. Of course, if you want to fly however you like and not worry about self-announcing, then sure, non-towered airports are much 'easier'!

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
25 B727LVR : What he was trying to say was: Make a 180 and backtrack. I think that one is a bit more familiar....
26 2H4 : ATC isn't there to replace your efforts to stay safe. They're there to supplement them. 2H4
27 FLY2HMO : Amen
28 P3Orion : Thank you. We're there to ensue you guys get in and get out without bumping in to each other. Not to usurp your command of the C172 you're flying.
29 GST : Agreed, the mode-S transponders they are pushing on all aircraft over here at the moment (albeit with gliders having a semi-exemption for now) have a
30 Bri2k1 : Personally, I like the extra set of eyes in the tower cab helping me spot traffic on final or in the pattern. I've never pulled onto a runway without
31 DiamondFlyer : Totally agree with you there. That said, I think it basically comes down to a personal preference, which could ultimately be traced back to where you
32 2H4 : Isn't the proper term "nontowered"? Ann Arbor, Michigan, will give you score updates similar in fashion to "wind checks" when there's a home game in
33 Bond007 : "non-towered" would be correct, although tha FAA do use the term "uncontrolled airport" in some documents. The only thing "pilot-controlled" would be
34 DAL7e7 : Wow.. Bitter. I actually prefer uncontrolled because "Auburn area traffic, Cessna 996RA is 3 miles southeast descending through 2,000, maneuvering fo
35 Bri2k1 : I believe it's an AOPA thing. They started discouraging the use of the term "uncontrolled" a few years ago because it's imperative that pilots at suc
36 Bond007 : Ummmm..no. Just stating some facts and some opinions. Nothing bitter. I simply stated that that's the first time I've heard a pilot say they prefer n
37 Mir : If you ever end up talking less at a non-towered airport than you do at a towered airport, something is wrong. -Mir
38 AFGMEL : I spent most of my flying life at uncontrolled airfields. Some of them had towers that may or may not have been manned. As for the OPs question, witho
39 DAL7e7 : I can relate. I've been cut-off on final a couple of times... Never said anything about talking less, its just that I prefer to announce my position
40 Bond007 : Yes, and I can't remember ever being cut-off on final at an ATC towered airport ... I wonder why? I guarantee that the more you fly at towered airpor
41 P3Orion : Well said. You do not know how frustrating it is when a chatterbox checks in on freq.
42 IAHFLYR : Excellent advise Jimbo, I only wish all CFI's taught this to all their students as well as handed them the mic and had the student do all the radio w
43 FLY2HMO : Agreed. Here's the thing I've noticed, some students are just complete cowards when it comes to talking on the radio. I was one of the few exceptions
44 Swiftski : How can you prefer it over something you haven't even tried?
45 DAL7e7 : If you'll read, I said I think I prefer, meaning that I've considered both ideas and I think I prefer flying at an uncontrolled. I do all the radio c
46 Bond007 : Sounds exactly like my story Jimbo
47 FLY2HMO : I'm sure controllers appreciate our type Some people just don't have the touch though. My best friend, with several more hours than myself, is one of
48 Swiftski : If you (for whatever reason) feel like a "badass" on the radio then it's strange that you wouldn't want to fly at a controlled aerodrome where you ac
49 GST : This used to describe me nicely. Nowadays I have no qualms, but I do occasionally get my trigraph confused, and mix up the Bellarena and Eglinton fre
50 Aaron747 : Have to agree - but the guy who went ahead and crossed the line is not in the clear either. Before releasing the brakes to get moving over the line i
51 FLY2HMO : Ya tell me about it. Arizona is plagued with your stereotypical Vietnam/Korea retirees that only flies their rusty Bonanza/Citabria/Ercoupe/Piper Cub
52 DAL7e7 : I haven't had the opportunity... I never said I wouldn't. I said I enjoy starting out in one. I have like 30-35 hours... War Eagle! Trey
53 IAHFLYR : Most controllers appreciate a pilot who listens more than they talk if ya really want to know the truth!!
54 2H4 : There's a reason we have two ears but only one mouth. 2H4
55 FLY2HMO : I'm sure ATCers responsible for NW188 would beg to differ
56 IAHFLYR : I don't really think so...but had they actually listened with their ears maybe their mouths would have replied!
57 Post contains images FLY2HMO :
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