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IL-76 Landing: Can Any Other Jet Do This?  
User currently onlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1613 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6974 times:

At around 3:30 in the following vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ-gOFycJNE

an IL-76 is on final approach with a nose-down attitude of perhaps 10-15 degrees, aiming for the threshold. It also seems to be flying very, very slowly, like the propliners did on approach back before the jet age.

What is it with the IL-76 that makes it do this? All other jet planes typically have to maintain a nose-up attitude on approach. Or maybe this is an empty plane with almost nil fuel left. At any rate, the IL-76 seems to be quite over-winged to be able to approach like that. Can any other comparable jet aircraft do this?

Faro


The chalice not my son
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6965 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6904 times:

I'm more curious... do they know when the nose gear will make the first contact or the mains?  Smile

I guess it has 4 nosewheels for that reasons...  Smile



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 938 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6900 times:



Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 1):
I'm more curious... do they know when the nose gear will make the first contact or the mains? Smile

Presumably they will know by looking at the pitch angle on the artificial horizon. Even so, it is strange to me that the gear would be made to land nose wheel first or main wheels first, seems unreasonably heavy as far as I can figure.


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6794 times:



Quoting GST (Reply 2):
Even so, it is strange to me that the gear would be made to land nose wheel first or main wheels first,

I don't think that was intentional. The other ones I have seen have either 3 pointed or landed mains first.



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User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6644 times:

Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
perhaps 10-15 degrees

More like 5 degrees, IF anything.

Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
What is it with the IL-76 that makes it do this?

You'll find that high wing STOL capable cargo aircraft (like the C-17, C5, etc) land much flatter, and sometimes as in the video with a steeper nose down attitude, than normal planes. This is mainly due to the large flap deflections used, which create enormous amounts of drag and increase the effective angle of attack, in order to compensate the airplane must be flow at a much lower pitch angle, among other factors.

Quoting GST (Reply 2):
Presumably they will know by looking at the pitch angle on the artificial horizon

The pilots have absolutely no reason to look at the attitude indicator if its VFR conditions, or even during IFR once they break out into. The only time they would be looking inside in a visual approach would be to check airspeed.

[Edited 2009-12-07 11:22:32]

User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (5 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6600 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
You'll find that high wing STOL capable cargo aircraft (like the C-17, C5, etc) land much flatter, and sometimes as in the video with a steeper nose down attitude, than normal planes.

Most high wing aircraft land with a nose down attitude and some actually climb out nose down. Also: Interesting choice of words "normal planes"?


User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (5 years 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6538 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
Also: Interesting choice of words "normal planes"?

Uhm yeah poor choice of words actually lol

By normal I was referring to low wing transport category planes, or heck low winged planes in general.

Of course there are some exceptions. The CRJ 200 has a nose down approach due to lack of slats.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
and some actually climb out nose down.

True. The B-52 and the DH Caribou are some that come to mind.

Here's a good video on the Caribou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7lRlpPbERo&feature=related


User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3591 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6506 times:
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Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
Most high wing aircraft land with a nose down attitude and some actually climb out nose down.

The B-52 famously flies nose down and taxies sidewise......



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User currently offlineLemmy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6496 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 6):
DH Caribou ... comes to mind

Interesting. Is he holding the nose down right after liftoff just to keep it in ground effect? Looks to me like, once he gets enough speed, the nose comes up for the climb.



I am a patient boy ...
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (5 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6427 times:



Quoting Lemmy (Reply 8):
Looks to me like, once he gets enough speed, the nose comes up for the climb.

If you see other videos of the caribou it does have a slight nose down attitude when level and with the flaps out. It's pretty noticeable in the B-52 as well.


User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (5 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6425 times:



Quoting Lemmy (Reply 8):
Looks to me like, once he gets enough speed, the nose comes up for the climb.

Hard to say for certain, but I think the nose comes up as the flaps retract. Bear in mind, pitch angle need not correspond to angle of attack. The wing could care less what the pitch attitude is, so long as the AOA requirements are satisfied.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (5 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6419 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 6):
Here's a good video on the Caribou.

I'm sure you know, but the DHC-4 Caribou is a different (albeit similar) aircraft than the Buffalo. DHC-5 (or CC-115 in this case) as ahown in the video.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6325 times:



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):

I'm sure you know, but the DHC-4 Caribou is a different (albeit similar) aircraft than the Buffalo.

Alas you're right! I didn't even catch that. It even said so in the video title. I initially searched for DH4s but then I clicked on that video without thinking much about it as it was showing in the "related" videos pane. Silly me.  dopey 


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (5 years 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6319 times:
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Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 12):
I didn't even catch that.

You'd better brush up before the next round of "Identify This!"  Wink

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently onlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6223 times:



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 7):
The B-52 famously flies nose down and taxies sidewise......

And sheds wings with its chocks on...

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently onlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6147 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 4):
You'll find that high wing STOL capable cargo aircraft (like the C-17, C5, etc) land much flatter, and sometimes as in the video with a steeper nose down attitude, than normal planes.

Hmm...wonder if there are any C-17/C-5 pics out there with a nose-down final approach, will have a look...

Just had a quick glance at the numbers though and I believe that the IL-76 does have something special. Depending on the model you take as reference, it has up to 33% less wing loading at MTOW than the C-17. That is no joke, and may well account for the dramatic nose-down final approach ability.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (5 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6089 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 15):
Hmm...wonder if there are any C-17/C-5 pics out there with a nose-down final approach, will have a look...

The C-5 and C-17 have leading edge slats, which allow for a more conventional attitude during landings and takeoffs.


User currently onlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6042 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 16):
The C-5 and C-17 have leading edge slats, which allow for a more conventional attitude during landings and takeoffs

So does the IL-76, and I imagine that it can also do conventional landing attitudes. However, it can still approach nose-down. So far I have not found any pics of nose-down C-17 or C-5 landings (which doesn't mean they don't exist...).

Essentially, I think the IL-76 just has a huge, outsized wing for its weight category.

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (5 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6005 times:
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Does anyone know what the maximum flap setting is on the IL-76?

2H4



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineTiger119 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5803 times:



Quoting Faro (Thread starter):
Faro

- Check the Saab in the video on Faro's link. It is around the 1:40 mark. I have flown in the 340 several times and a few times jump-seated (which in and of itself a neat trick). This looked like the 2000 though. Now, the times I watched this, when the Saab gets abeam the camera, it looks like the propeller stops on the number two. Roll it back a little bit it looks like when the P/F rotates the number two is still churning. Did Saab come up with a brake for the propeller axis to be used while churning? I know this is not a question about the Il-76 but it is a question that arose from watching the clip provided by Faro (the thread starter). Thanks,

Just Curious,

David



Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5787 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
Did Saab come up with a brake for the propeller axis to be used while churning? I know this is not a question about the Il-76 but it is a question that arose from watching the clip provided by Faro (the thread starter). Thanks,

Yes, on the RH prop. Not all SF340s have it installed and some have it deactivated.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3075 posts, RR: 36
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5698 times:
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There is a video somewhere of a "tactical approach and landing" of a C-17 onto an unprepared strip where the final is about about 20* nose down. I've been trying to find it unsuccessfully online.

And though not a jet... it still about the only steep approach you will ever see for most people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1v4KZdTMyI



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User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5608 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
This looked like the 2000 though.

It is.

Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
Roll it back a little bit it looks like when the P/F rotates the number two is still churning.

Dunno what you're talking about. Neither prop stops at all at any point in the video. You're just seeing the profile of the blade as the plane's angle changes relative to the camera.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 20):
Yes, on the RH prop. Not all SF340s have it installed and some have it deactivated.

May want to check the video again. It isn't showing a saab parked in hotel mode...


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2577 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5487 times:



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 22):
May want to check the video again. It isn't showing a saab parked in hotel mode...

I wasn't looking at the video, just confirming that a prop brake was available on the SF340.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineTiger119 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5290 times:



Quoting Tiger119 (Reply 19):
looks like when the P/F rotates the number two is still churning

- I think I should have said "flared the number........."

David



Flying is the second greatest thrill known to mankind, landing is the first!
User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2648 posts, RR: 17
Reply 25, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5281 times:

This particular Il-76 in this video is the Il-76MF demonstrator and it is very obvious that it was filmed in Zhukovskiy. Therefore this was 99% taken at the MAKS airshow and the plane would have been very light for the perfomance flying. So a nose down approach based on the reasons given above is perfectly logical.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 18):
Does anyone know what the maximum flap setting is on the IL-76?

43degrees/41degrees(inboard/outboard)


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