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London To New York A380 Fuel Costs  
User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 23162 times:

Hi everyone,

I am hoping someone might be able to answer a question for me.

What would be the approximate fuel cost for an A380 flying from London to New York?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6542 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 23034 times:

Aproximately £50,000. (Or US$80,000).

Going back home £45,000 due to tailwind.

It can jump up and down many thousand due to jumping fuel prices, actual payload carried, and wind.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22996 times:

Thank you very much for this, I needed the information for my university project.

May I ask what source you used to find this information?


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8503 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 22939 times:
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BA will probably launch their A380 service here since they can do a roundtrip daily in 2012. Virgin Atlantic could ruin that party with its own A380, and a Bransonized A380 will shame all others: showers, lounges and something we haven't thought of. Can't wait to see a British Airlines A380.

User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6542 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 22676 times:

Quoting BAfan (Reply 2):
May I ask what source you used to find this information?

Huh, I didn't use any source, I just put my central math processor (brain) to work for a few nanoseconds.

An A380 going LHR-JFK will burn close to 30,000 lbs per hour for the best of 7 hours, make that 200,000 lbs. And at present day prices 25p per lb isn't far off. That's £50k.

But there are so many variables, and for every single flight from LHR to JFK a separate fuel load calculation is made.

Payload, expected wind, that's obvious. Engine efficiency degrades over time until next major overhaul, and that adds anything from zero to a few percent. Maybe your alternate is in danger of being closed due to weather, and you load fuel for another alternate much farther away. It costs a lot of fuel to just transport fuel over the pond, even when you land on schedule at your destination. And a lot more than that. But the captain has the formula on his laptop.

[Edited 2009-12-10 16:32:19 by prebennorholm]


Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8503 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22422 times:
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Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 4):
An A380 going LHR-JFK will burn close to 30,000 lbs per hour for the best of 7 hours, make that 200,000 lbs. And at present day prices 25p per lb isn't far off. That's £50k.

But there are so many variables, and for every single flight from LHR to JFK a separate fuel load calculation is made

Yes an A380 would use more fuel then a 777 or a 747-400 but if BA's high J 744 seats 70 Club World seats then its A380 on teh JFK run would seat 80, 90, 100 ? As many have writen in normal economic times, " if J is full the flight is profitable". So why wouldn't an A380 be profitable if 70 J seat were sold at $2,000.00 one way or $4000.00 roundtrip. Through in 8 F seats at $5,000 one way and 300 coach at an average of $300 one way. If BA was selling a flight from LHR to Hong Kong it would be almost twice as long using about three times the fuel( lots of fuel used to carry the fuel for teh 8th to 12th hours of flight) with fares not much higher then a JFK to LHR run.


User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22415 times:



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 1):
Going back home £45,000 due to tailwind.

It depends which way is home  Smile We are not assuming any particular airline, so home could be westbound


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4417 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22415 times:

I'm skeptical we'll see A380s on that route in any timeframe worth caring about.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineEbbUK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22351 times:



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 4):
Quoting BAfan (Reply 2):
May I ask what source you used to find this information?

Huh, I didn't use any source, I just put my central math processor (brain) to work for a few nanoseconds.

An A380 going LHR-JFK will burn close to 30,000 lbs per hour for the best of 7 hours, make that 200,000 lbs. And at present day prices 25p per lb isn't far off. That's £50k.

I suspect he is asking from what source you got the A380 fuel burn/hr figure? Not sure your brain processed that out of thin air, or did it?


User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6542 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 22296 times:



Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 6):
It depends which way is home We are not assuming any particular airline, so home could be westbound

Ha ha - I will acknowledge your statement as soon as the the first A380 finds its home on American soil.

Until then, eastbound is "way home" for an A380, just like it was for Mr. Columbus.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6542 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (5 years 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 22159 times:



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
I suspect he is asking from what source you got the A380 fuel burn/hr figure? Not sure your brain processed that out of thin air, or did it?

Thin air or not?

Well, on all long range planes the engines shall overcome the drag in cruising flight, and the drag is close to 6% of the actual weight of the plane (OEW + payload + fuel load). And all modern turbofan engines have much the same specific fuel consumption, the Trent 900 and GP 7000 are probably by a thin margin the best in operation today.

Those figures plus OEW of most popular airliners are stored as rough numbers in my brain. But then my mother often told me that my brain was filled with thin air, and then she cried.

It may be a slight advantage for me that I spent 40 years of my professional career selling jet fuel. Well, at least crunshing numbers (programming the computers) in a company selling jet fuel to most of the world's leading airlines.

But not much. That flight might come out at anything between £30k and £70k depending on the circumstances. Fuel calculation formulas fill many pages of operator's manuals. I have seen them, and when I see them, then I feel like my mother was right.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8658 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 20431 times:



Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 6):
depends which way is home We are not assuming any particular airline, so home could be westbound

The question seems pretty clear to me: "How much fuel to fly from London to New York?"
Consequently, going back would be from New York to London. No? Sure, you can from from NY to LON Westbound but it's not very practical  Smile


User currently offlineA380900 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1118 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 19106 times:

Would a first gen 747 in the early 70s have consumed more fuel? Just wondering how much engines have improved...

User currently offlineTheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 18047 times:



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 10):
Those figures plus OEW of most popular airliners are stored as rough numbers in my brain. But then my mother often told me that my brain was filled with thin air, and then she cried.

Post of the day! I laughed cause I can relate to that...

Now back on topic, guess that the cost of operating such a large plane is really a bean counter´s nightmare, not only the fuel , the climate, the spare parts for failed equipment such as reading lamps, etc.
You really need to be sure you can fill ANY plane before entering a market, hence the old saying:

How do you make a millionaire in the Airline Industry? Start with a billionaire.

Regards TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1624 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16429 times:

With fuel alone at $80,000, how in the world do you make a profit on such a flight?

User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (5 years 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16364 times:



Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 15):
With fuel alone at $80,000, how in the world do you make a profit on such a flight?

Say you've got 100 premium seats in BA's 744s, selling at what, $5000 each? Just by selling 20 of those, you've got $100,000 so that covers the fuel, and potentially some, if not most, of the airport costs...



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineBAfan From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15130 times:

Thanks for all the replies.

So what if Ryanair set up this route, using the A380, and offered a premium economy section as well as economy?

After all, we have all seen how Ryanair have been able to stimulate demand to destinations using clever pricing tactics. I am sure there are people on both sides of the Atlantic that would love to travel to either way, but cannot afford to at £300 return.

Bring that price down to say £120 or £220 for premium, and see what happens to the demand!

Would be interesting if Ryanair decided to place an order for A320 series aircraft for Ryanair, and then add on A380's for RyanAtlantic!

What do we think?


User currently offlinePanman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15111 times:

Our 380's (Trent engines) from LHR-SIN on average go with about 178000-180000 Ltrs of fuel onboard. Using 178000 Ltrs and at an average S.G. (at this time of the year) of .8 that works out at 222500 kgs (490528 lbs) of fuel onboard, and they usually land with an average of 20000 kgs (44092 lbs) on board. So call it a burn of an even 200000 kgs of fuel on a 12 hour flight. Which is 16667 kgs (36743lbs) per hour.

That's enough math from me now.......


Panman


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17180 posts, RR: 66
Reply 18, posted (5 years 1 week 3 days ago) and read 15052 times:



Quoting Avek00 (Reply 7):
I'm skeptical we'll see A380s on that route in any timeframe worth caring about.

LHR-JFK? The premium route where AA and BA each run 6 of their biggest jets daily both ways, with VS not far behind? I think the 380 is very likely on LHR-JFK.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 3):
a Bransonized A380 will shame all others: showers, lounges and something we haven't thought of.

Don't forget the bowling alleys!



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineAstuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10243 posts, RR: 97
Reply 19, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 15028 times:
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Quoting Panman (Reply 17):
Our 380's (Trent engines) from LHR-SIN on average go with about 178000-180000 Ltrs of fuel onboard. Using 178000 Ltrs and at an average S.G. (at this time of the year) of .8 that works out at 222500 kgs (490528 lbs) of fuel onboard, and they usually land with an average of 20000 kgs (44092 lbs) on board. So call it a burn of an even 200000 kgs of fuel on a 12 hour flight. Which is 16667 kgs (36743lbs) per hour.

I'm pretty sure you went the wrong way with your 0.8 multiplication  yes 
There's NO WAY on God's earth an A380 uses 200 tonnes of fuel to get from LHR-SIN.  no 

If you take your 178 000 ltrs and multiply it by 0.8, you get 142 000kg - 142 tonnes
If you land with 20 000kg, then the plane has used 122 000kg, or 122 tonnes, which sounds much nearer the mark  thumbsup 

A currently in service A380 taking off at MTOW with 220t of fuel on board, and burning 200 tonnes of it, would travel over 7 800 Nm air range - WAY more than LHR-SIN eastbound, which is probably nearer
5 000Nm air range..

Rgds


User currently offlinePanman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14847 times:

That's what I get for hurriedly typing a reply while sneezing my life away (attack of the killer sinusitis). Of course it's multiply by .800

Good thing I don't go on the F/D with the fuel book for the flight crew to sign having divided by .800 we would be defuelling everyday. Worse yet, like a fellow colleague of mine, I would have been shown the door by management and told to update my CV/Resume..... oh and not to ask for a recommendation....


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (5 years 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14738 times:



Quoting A380900 (Reply 12):
Would a first gen 747 in the early 70s have consumed more fuel? Just wondering how much engines have improved...

747 classics are around 13-14t/hr

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 19):
If you take your 178 000 ltrs and multiply it by 0.8, you get 142 000kg - 142 tonnes
If you land with 20 000kg, then the plane has used 122 000kg, or 122 tonnes, which sounds much nearer the mark

Yes 10-12t/hr is the average fuel burn for the A388. The 30,000-40,000 lb/hr numbers above are way OTT.

On a short flight like LHR-JFK, 10t/hr would be conservative.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
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