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747-8 Flap Pic.  
User currently offlineCCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 837 posts, RR: 14
Posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 14504 times:

Found a pic of the 747-8F flaps as advertised single O/B double slotted I/B.



http://i.bnet.com/blogs/747-8.jpg?tag=col1;attachment_2518


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Martin Robson



[Edited 2009-12-19 03:28:24]


C152 G115 TB10 CAP10 SR-22 Be76 PA-34 NDN-1T C500 A330-300 A340-300 -600 B747-200F -200SF -400 -400F -400BCF -400ERF -8F
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1637 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14348 times:

Those still are enormous flaps, although I will miss the triple-slotted flaps of the classic 747s. Thanks for the image.


B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1964 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 14250 times:

Still big, but I'll miss the triples. These look very plain in a such a large size.

Thanks for the pic.


User currently offlineSoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14229 times:

Is the entire wing re designed on this NG version?

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 14217 times:



Quoting Soon7x7 (Reply 3):
Is the entire wing re designed on this NG version?

New loft, new control surfaces, mostly the same structure.

Tom.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14203 times:

I can't tell from that photo if the 748 has drooped ailerons...does it?


What the...?
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14187 times:

Yes, it has drooped ailerons, or flaperons.


This wing is super critical whereas the others were not. Don't ask me to define it, because I don't really know what it means other than the underside is scooped out near the rear? I'd love a definition of super-critical.

UAL

[Edited 2009-12-19 19:13:40]

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5476 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14171 times:




What the...?
User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10095 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 14097 times:
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Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
This wing is super critical whereas the others were not. Don't ask me to define it, because I don't really know what it means other than the underside is scooped out near the rear? I'd love a definition of super-critical.

While I don't know the technical reason they're called super-critical, what it basically does is push the shockwave farther back on the wing. At that point, you get a weaker shock, and reduced drag.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14038 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
This wing is super critical whereas the others were not. Don't ask me to define it, because I don't really know what it means other than the underside is scooped out near the rear?

The scoop at the back is called a reflexed trailing edge...it's not essential to a supercritical airfoil, but most of them have it to improve the pressure recovery at the back and make the moment curve a little nicer.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
I'd love a definition of super-critical.

It's like a Supreme Court justice once said "I know it when I see it." A hard technical definition is quite difficult, but anybody with solid aerodynamics knowledge can recognize a super-critical airfoil when they see one. The giveaway is usually a fairly flat upper surface and an evenly thick middle. Put another way, a supercritical airfoil usually looks like a thick plate with a leading and trailing edge stuck on. A conventional airfoil usually doesn't have a near-constant thickness section in the middle.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 8):
While I don't know the technical reason they're called super-critical, what it basically does is push the shockwave farther back on the wing. At that point, you get a weaker shock, and reduced drag.

Critical Mach number (Mcr) is the Mach number when some portion of the airflow somewhere on the airfoil first hits Mach 1. In conventional airfoils, this usually happens right around the thickest part, is a relatively strong shock, and causes a fairly abrupt drag rise if you go much beyond Mcr. As a result, conventional airfoils rarely operate very far above Mcr.

A supercritical airfoil is designed to have more gradual velocity gradients over the top surface (they spread out the low pressure area) so that the supersonic point is farther back and the shock is weaker. This lets them get farther past Mcr before the drag gets too unpleasant, so they can perform better above their critical Mach number...they work OK when super-critical.

Tom.


User currently offlineVikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10095 posts, RR: 26
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14034 times:
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Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 9):
Critical Mach number (Mcr) is the Mach number when some portion of the airflow somewhere on the airfoil first hits Mach 1. In conventional airfoils, this usually happens right around the thickest part, is a relatively strong shock, and causes a fairly abrupt drag rise if you go much beyond Mcr. As a result, conventional airfoils rarely operate very far above Mcr.

A supercritical airfoil is designed to have more gradual velocity gradients over the top surface (they spread out the low pressure area) so that the supersonic point is farther back and the shock is weaker. This lets them get farther past Mcr before the drag gets too unpleasant, so they can perform better above their critical Mach number...they work OK when super-critical.

Wow, I can't believe that never crossed my mind as the meaning of "supercritical"!

Thanks Tom.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 13822 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 9):
drag gets too unpleasant,

Would you know what is the main component of drag experienced by airfoils operating near their critical Mach numbers? Is it the shock wave itself or the shock induced separation?

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13763 times:



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
This wing is super critical whereas the others were not. Don't ask me to define it, because I don't really know what it means other than the underside is scooped out near the rear? I'd love a definition of super-critical.

Have a look at this... http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/a...hnology/Facts/TF-2004-13-DFRC.html You can google a lot more.

Supercritical wings are the industry standard on airliners and have been so for quite a few decades. I am pretty sure that the 744 was the very last airliner to be produced with non-supercritical wings.

"Supercritical" was a buzzword in the 70'es, but since it became the industry standard in the 80'es, it mostly went out of use.

It is much like my grandfather's Ford model T which he in the mid 20'es had modified with automatic windscreen wipers. In this case "automatic" means that the wipers were driven by an electric motor, and not by a handle.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13672 times:



Quoting JetMech (Reply 11):
Would you know what is the main component of drag experienced by airfoils operating near their critical Mach numbers? Is it the shock wave itself or the shock induced separation?

I suspect it's the shock wave itself, but that's just a gut feeling...I'd be curious to see some wind tunnel data or Schlieren photos of a wing right at Mcr.

Tom.


User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13522 times:

Are the flap track fairings unchanged? The ones on the 744 are big, hefty contraptions, maybe Boeing took the opportunity to streamline them a bit with the 748?

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13376 times:



Quoting Faro (Reply 14):
Are the flap track fairings unchanged?

Given that it's a relofted wing, I think they'd have had to change them.

Tom.


User currently offlineFWI747 From France, joined Jul 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13291 times:

they did

Last 744F
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3581/3306313817_9dbc376263_o.jpg

1st 748F


They look more like those of the 777 now :
http://microvoltradio.com/images/kpae3691.jpg


User currently offlineFaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13277 times:



Quoting FWI747 (Reply 16):
they did

Maybe it' just a question of detail that a closer-up image might clarify, but I have the impression that those fairings on the 748 are in fact the same as the 744's...

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently offlineFWI747 From France, joined Jul 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 13271 times:

I think the most inboard flap fairing has its max thickness a little more fore on the -8 than on the 744... and it seems to me that the outboard ones are a little thinner toward the end but, I agree one need sharp eyes

rgds

[Edited 2009-12-21 11:14:34]

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19924 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 13209 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):

New loft, new control surfaces, mostly the same structure.

New airfoil, new bending moment, new materials... a very different wing from the original. AFAIK, the 744 wing, was essentially identical to the 741 wing except for the winglet/extension and an improved wing root fairing.

Quoting Faro (Reply 17):

Maybe it' just a question of detail that a closer-up image might clarify, but I have the impression that those fairings on the 748 are in fact the same as the 744's...

The fairings are not just covers for the flap apparatus. They also serve as anti-shock bodies. They soften the sudden decrease in aircraft cross-section at the trailing edge of the wing. The nacelles, mounted way out in front of the wings, also serve the same role ahead of the wing.


User currently offlineDynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 876 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 13023 times:



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
New airfoil, new bending moment, new materials... a very different wing from the original.

Still mostly the same structure though - same architecture, regauged for the changes in loads. The loft changes the shape a little, but it's still the same layout. Are the materials different for the structure?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12829 times:

Question: What does "relofting" mean?


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12819 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):

I'd say it means that Boeing adjusted the shape of the airfoil sections used in the wing. This could be done by adjusting the camber line and / or thickness distribution as well as other parameters.

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 12742 times:



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
Question: What does "relofting" mean?

The loft is the shape of the wing. The term is a throwback to aviation's naval roots:
"Lofting is a time honored tradition amongst boat builders. It refers to the tradition of building full scale templates for the boat's hull in the loft of a boat building building(?), then dropping lines down through the loft to the building area that periodically delineate the curve."
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/Plans/lofting.htm

Quoting Jetmech (Reply 22):
I'd say it means that Boeing adjusted the shape of the airfoil sections used in the wing.

Changing airfoils is definitely relofting, but it could also include changes to the twist, sweep, di/anhedral.

Tom.


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17068 posts, RR: 66
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12692 times:

Ok so if there is relofting does that mean there is a new wing? I mean when does a redesign of an existing wing become an "all new" wing?  Wink


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
25 Soon7x7 : The 747 has proved the success of the flexible variable leading edge flap...why other models and or manufacturers not utilizing this concept?
26 Dw747400 : As I understand it, the primary structure of the wing (spars, ribs, etc) is pretty much the same as on prior versions of the 747, with two obvious ex
27 DocLightning : I've always wondered this myself. The 747 was the only model with this curious design. I never understood why. I would imagine that during extension/
28 Tdscanuck : In my book, yes, since the biggest design factor in the wing is the aerodynamics. I don't think there's any clear-cut definition, but Dw747400's soun
29 Starlionblue : As I recall, the reason for the design was that the 747 leading edge was quite thin in order to achieve the speeds required by Pan Am. But I could be
30 Western727 : This is also how I understand it; the "thinness" of the 741/4's wing leading edge meant that installing slats (and the associated hardware) was not p
31 Starlionblue : The legendary Juan Trippe, then CEO of Pan Am, was one of the strongest forces behind the 747. With a handshake between him and Bill Allen at Boeing,
32 DocLightning : I read that the plane was originally designed to cruise above above M 0.9, but it was found to be uneconomical. Still, the shape of the nose is desig
33 Post contains images 747classic : The improved wing root fairing as seen on all 747-400's is a product improvement developed to decrease the fuel consumption with approx. 0.5%. It's a
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