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De-Icing Aircraft Wheels  
User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 7027 times:

Howdy,

My mum just departed MAN to come see me in YYZ, and according to my brother he got a call saying the A/C was sitting on the runway (i'm more inclined to believe it was the taxiway), waiting for the wheels to be de-iced (as per cabin announcement). My question is: How common is it to have the wheels de-iced and what would the major problem be with having iced up wheels? Extra wear? Seizure? Sluggish acceleration and possible braking probs if an abort had to be executed?

Comments and answers appreciated as always

Cheers

Stu

ps, ship in question is a 757, should've been an A330


In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7000 times:

They probably misheard them saying wings. There is no reason to deice the wheels.


DMI
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6970 times:



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 1):
They probably misheard them saying wings. There is no reason to deice the wheels.

If you get water in the brakes, and then cool the wheels to below freezing, the wheels will be siezed. Happened to my car once (front wheel drive, rear disc brakes), while parked on the street during an ice storm  Wink

However, I am aware of no procedure one can use to de-ice aircraft wheels if this happens, other than wait for a thaw  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6941 times:

I remember hearing that you don't want to get de-ice fluid on the wheels, because it will eat away at the brakes. But maybe that only applies to certain types of fluid.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6838 times:

I recall this happening to Metros and Be1900s when I worked in SYR many years ago. The pilots would taxi across a snowy ramp which would pack snow around the brake assy. It would melt on the hot brake and refreeze as the brake cooled down. I remember one night the pilots were taxiing from the gate to the hangar at the end of the day and locked up all four brakes as they were crossing the end of the active runway. Our Mtc ramp was straight ahead so they just powered it up and dragged it to a stop in front of the hangar. They blew all four mains. I then spend the rest of my shift changing them on our snowy ramp.

Usually when they froze up we would hit them with glycol. Was it approved? I highly doubt it. That long gone operation wasn't always conserned with approved methods only.


User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6829 times:
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I've seen the wheels on a jetbridge get de-iced before though!


Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

What about warm air blowers.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6733 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
What about warm air blowers.
regds
MEL.

I suppose that might work. Something like this?

http://www.flameengineering.com/Engine_Preheaters.htm

 Smile

However, it is designed to blow hot air up the exhaust of a piston engine..., but I suppose you could just point the duct at the brake rotor/disc assembly.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineSkysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1136 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6659 times:

Thanks for all the replies! Mum is still sticking with the A/C wheels being de-iced, but it turns out the plane was at the gate.....so i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible? I guess we'll never know but i wanted to provide an update.

Thanks for taking the time

Cheers

Stu



In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
User currently offlinePilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6627 times:

No, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea.


DMI
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6592 times:



Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 8):
so i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible?

That's exactly what happened. Working on the ramp at CLE more than once I needed the de-ice truck to squirt around the wheels to unstick them after sitting all night long.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
No, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea

Sand won't unstick the wheels if they've frozen in overnight.


User currently offlineBartonsayswhat From Canada, joined Oct 2007, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6580 times:

Maybe they were spraying the gear struts. If there is ice in there they might not come up / down properly. We have a tarp to cover the wheels / brakes when we do this.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6578 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 10):

Sand won't unstick the wheels if they've frozen in overnight.



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
o, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea

Sand is reccommended to create friction in Icing conditions for Ground movement.

I feel it was probably Hot steam blown over the brakes in case of Icing.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineFlightmedic72 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

November 27, 1970 - there was a DC 8 military charter (Capital Airways) crash here in ANC caused by the failure of the wheels to rotate due to icing with 46 fatalities.

The flight was being operated as a Military Airlift Command (MAC) contract flight from McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma, Washington, to Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam, with en route refueling stops at Anchorage and Yokota, Japan.

The investigation disclosed that the DC-8 failed to become airborne during the takeoff run and overran the end of the runway. It continued along the ground and struck a low wooden barrier, the instrument landing system (ILS) structure, and a 12-foot deep drainage ditch before coming to a stop approximately 3,400 feet beyond the end of the runway.

The DC-8 was destroyed in the intense ground fire which developed subsequent to the crash. There were 219 military passengers (including six dependents) and a crew of 10 aboard the aircraft. Forty-six passengers and one flight attendant were killed as a result of the post-crash fire.

At the time of takeoff, the airport was experiencing a very light freezing drizzle. The runway used by this flight (6R) was covered with ice and slush with braking action reported as fair to poor.

Following the accident, tire skid-marks, degraded rubber and shredded tire casings were found over most of the length of the runway.


User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 17 hours ago) and read 6395 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Sand is reccommended to create friction in Icing conditions for Ground movement.

First you have to have aircraft movement. As the OP said in a subsequent post, the aircraft was stuck at the gate. Sand doesn't do any good in that instance.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
I feel it was probably Hot steam blown over the brakes in case of Icing.

The wheels at the point of contact with the ground get squirted with the hot water/deice mix. It doesn't take much and the plane gets free.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 6336 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 14):

First you have to have aircraft movement. As the OP said in a subsequent post, the aircraft was stuck at the gate. Sand doesn't do any good in that instance.

I was referring to use of sand to create friction during mvmt in icing conditions,it was a revert to the qoute above & not the OP.

Quoting DXing (Reply 14):

The wheels at the point of contact with the ground get squirted with the hot water/deice mix. It doesn't take much and the plane gets free.

Are you saying the Deicing fluid contacts the tires?

regds
MEL.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6145 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Are you saying the Deicing fluid contacts the tires?

Yes. The deicer shoots the area around the base of the tires. The hot mixture melts the ice that is sticking to the tires and assuming the pushback has traction the plane can move. Had to have that done on several occasions.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6122 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
Yes. The deicer shoots the area around the base of the tires. The hot mixture melts the ice that is sticking to the tires and assuming the pushback has traction the plane can move. Had to have that done on several occasions.

Any adverse effect from the Deice fluid on the tire?
regds
MEL...



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6070 times:

I've seen the Just Planes video of the Alaska 737-200 and in one of the deicing scenes, they spray the fluid all over the nose wheel and ski. This was one of the planes with the gravel kit. Don't remember seeing them spray the mains so maybe just something to do with the retraction of the ski/deflector on that plane.


The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlineDXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6046 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 17):
Any adverse effect from the Deice fluid on the tire?

Nope. 50/50 mix. The ramp is covered with snow so by the end of the push the mix on the tires is even less than that.


User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6020 times:

I had to put a Beech 99 in the hangar a while back. They were plowing snow on the taxiways, the aircraft had to taxi through some 1ft. drifts, it sat outside for a few hours. The brakes froze up. I poured some alcohol on them, kicked the tires numerous times and it was still froze. I got some non heated type 1 and poured it on the brakes, kicked the tires more and it still didn't want to move. I did some gentle back and fourth motion with the tug and it finally broke loose. There's nothing worse than froze brakes.


Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently offlineVenus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5956 times:

Just use the air off the air start cart, its plenty warm and melts and blows away ice, use on to deice LJ-35's and King Airs. The snow blowers on deicier trucks are the same thing. Rather just have warm blown on brakes and tires than ethyl glycol.


I would help you but it is not in the contract
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5901 times:



Quoting DXing (Reply 19):

Nope. 50/50 mix.

I was wondering if the fluid would weaken the tire rubber life.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

The following excerpt from a recent Transport Canada incident report involving a Beech 1900 that landed with frozen brakes on the left side resulting in two flat tires, says the carrier's aircraft are equipped with a brake de-icing system. How does such a system work? Does it involve heat or de-icing fluid? The temperature in Edmonton on the day in question (December 7) was very cold, around -30C, and around -15C at the destination.

Central Mountain Air (CMA) Beech 1900D operating CMA Flight 793, IFR Edmonton (CYEG) to Fort St. John (CYXJ), left side main landing gear wheels were frozen. Failure of deicing equipment is presumed. Aircraft landed with left side wheels locked. Was able to bring aircraft to a safe stop 300 ft past hold line for runway 02/20, resulting in both tires flat. Passengers were taken to terminal by vehicle and local technicians began working on removing the aircraft from runway (14:10). Winds did not cause issues in using runway 02/20, so aircraft was able to stay on runway until CMA technicians were able to arrive with equipment to lift aircraft and fix wheels/brakes (17:45). Aircraft was repaired and was able to taxi back to ramp (20:35). Plane departed for YVR around 21:30.
UPDATE: The operator suspects frozen brakes as the aircraft departed Edmonton International Airport during conditions of blowing snow. Company aircraft are equipped with brake de-ice systems. There was no damage to the aircraft other than the tires.
UPDATE: A P-Memo was issued to company flight crews to emphasize the importance of using brake de-ice systems when conditions warrant (Beech SOP 1.14.19 refers).


User currently offlineFreeze3192 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5770 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
The following excerpt from a recent Transport Canada incident report involving a Beech 1900 that landed with frozen brakes on the left side resulting in two flat tires, says the carrier's aircraft are equipped with a brake de-icing system. How does such a system work? Does it involve heat or de-icing fluid? The temperature in Edmonton on the day in question (December 7) was very cold, around -30C, and around -15C at the destination.

My knowledge is limited, but hot bleed air from the engines is blown onto the brakes to deice them after being up at altitude.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Felix Bahamonde - PR Planespotters



You can kind of see the brake deice lines in this photo. They are the orange lines that come down the back of the landing gear strut.

It was the best picture I could find. Maybe someone else could find a better one.



"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
25 Post contains images SP90 : I recently flew into Denver during the Christmas holiday. When we arrived at the gate I saw a truck pull up next to our aircraft and I noticed it said
26 Post contains links HAWK21M : http://premier-deicers.com/after_market.php?cat=gear_deicers The company above has similiar equipment. regds MEL.
27 Musang : We used to operate Avro RJs to a compacted snow covered airfield in Norway called Dagali. Braking effectiveness was achieved by the spraying of heated
28 cvg2lga : I don't know for sure that it does or doesn't but they do taxi in and out of the deice pads through type1 and type4 all the time during appropriate w
29 seabosdca : I once experienced a one-hour delay on an AS 738 in BOS that occurred because the tug couldn't get traction. It was eventually solved by some rampers
30 RDUOODL : Our De-/Anti-Icing manual says the fluid can weaken the tire rubber life, but is just part of game when trying to unfreeze the aircraft from the ramp
31 HAWK21M : What prevents Tire condition weakening in service then.Will the Scheduled Mx be lowered in hrs. regds MEL.
32 YWG : The plane was probably frozen to the ground. Metros and 1900s have an inherent problem with icing and landing gear. 1)The main gear sits next to a ni
33 rduoodl : Tire changes are just completed as needed. Not really on a schedule.
34 intsim : I was working a 733 from SLC that had the left outer main frozen and dragging on arrival to gate. The weather in SLC was heavy snow/slush. The tire di
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