Skysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1139 posts, RR: 12 Posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7497 times:
My mum just departed MAN to come see me in YYZ, and according to my brother he got a call saying the A/C was sitting on the runway (i'm more inclined to believe it was the taxiway), waiting for the wheels to be de-iced (as per cabin announcement). My question is: How common is it to have the wheels de-iced and what would the major problem be with having iced up wheels? Extra wear? Seizure? Sluggish acceleration and possible braking probs if an abort had to be executed?
Comments and answers appreciated as always
ps, ship in question is a 757, should've been an A330
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7440 times:
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 1): They probably misheard them saying wings. There is no reason to deice the wheels.
If you get water in the brakes, and then cool the wheels to below freezing, the wheels will be siezed. Happened to my car once (front wheel drive, rear disc brakes), while parked on the street during an ice storm
However, I am aware of no procedure one can use to de-ice aircraft wheels if this happens, other than wait for a thaw
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
Dalmd88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2676 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (5 years 4 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7308 times:
I recall this happening to Metros and Be1900s when I worked in SYR many years ago. The pilots would taxi across a snowy ramp which would pack snow around the brake assy. It would melt on the hot brake and refreeze as the brake cooled down. I remember one night the pilots were taxiing from the gate to the hangar at the end of the day and locked up all four brakes as they were crossing the end of the active runway. Our Mtc ramp was straight ahead so they just powered it up and dragged it to a stop in front of the hangar. They blew all four mains. I then spend the rest of my shift changing them on our snowy ramp.
Usually when they froze up we would hit them with glycol. Was it approved? I highly doubt it. That long gone operation wasn't always conserned with approved methods only.
Skysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1139 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7129 times:
Thanks for all the replies! Mum is still sticking with the A/C wheels being de-iced, but it turns out the plane was at the gate.....so i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible? I guess we'll never know but i wanted to provide an update.
Thanks for taking the time
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
DXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 4 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7062 times:
Quoting Skysurfer (Reply 8): so i'm more inclined to believe the tug was having problems gaining traction on the ramp to push the flight back off the gate, meaning the ramp had to have some fluid sprayed on it. Sound more plausible?
That's exactly what happened. Working on the ramp at CLE more than once I needed the de-ice truck to squirt around the wheels to unstick them after sitting all night long.
Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9): No, because that would just make a slushy mess with even less traction. Sand would be used in that case or perhaps urea
Sand won't unstick the wheels if they've frozen in overnight.
Flightmedic72 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 4 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6963 times:
November 27, 1970 - there was a DC 8 military charter (Capital Airways) crash here in ANC caused by the failure of the wheels to rotate due to icing with 46 fatalities.
The flight was being operated as a Military Airlift Command (MAC) contract flight from McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma, Washington, to Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam, with en route refueling stops at Anchorage and Yokota, Japan.
The investigation disclosed that the DC-8 failed to become airborne during the takeoff run and overran the end of the runway. It continued along the ground and struck a low wooden barrier, the instrument landing system (ILS) structure, and a 12-foot deep drainage ditch before coming to a stop approximately 3,400 feet beyond the end of the runway.
The DC-8 was destroyed in the intense ground fire which developed subsequent to the crash. There were 219 military passengers (including six dependents) and a crew of 10 aboard the aircraft. Forty-six passengers and one flight attendant were killed as a result of the post-crash fire.
At the time of takeoff, the airport was experiencing a very light freezing drizzle. The runway used by this flight (6R) was covered with ice and slush with braking action reported as fair to poor.
Following the accident, tire skid-marks, degraded rubber and shredded tire casings were found over most of the length of the runway.
DXing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6615 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15): Are you saying the Deicing fluid contacts the tires?
Yes. The deicer shoots the area around the base of the tires. The hot mixture melts the ice that is sticking to the tires and assuming the pushback has traction the plane can move. Had to have that done on several occasions.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31754 posts, RR: 55
Reply 17, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6592 times:
Quoting DXing (Reply 16): Yes. The deicer shoots the area around the base of the tires. The hot mixture melts the ice that is sticking to the tires and assuming the pushback has traction the plane can move. Had to have that done on several occasions.
Any adverse effect from the Deice fluid on the tire?
71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3097 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6540 times:
I've seen the Just Planes video of the Alaska 737-200 and in one of the deicing scenes, they spray the fluid all over the nose wheel and ski. This was one of the planes with the gravel kit. Don't remember seeing them spray the mains so maybe just something to do with the retraction of the ski/deflector on that plane.
WESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 695 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6490 times:
I had to put a Beech 99 in the hangar a while back. They were plowing snow on the taxiways, the aircraft had to taxi through some 1ft. drifts, it sat outside for a few hours. The brakes froze up. I poured some alcohol on them, kicked the tires numerous times and it was still froze. I got some non heated type 1 and poured it on the brakes, kicked the tires more and it still didn't want to move. I did some gentle back and fourth motion with the tug and it finally broke loose. There's nothing worse than froze brakes.
Venus6971 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6426 times:
Just use the air off the air start cart, its plenty warm and melts and blows away ice, use on to deice LJ-35's and King Airs. The snow blowers on deicier trucks are the same thing. Rather just have warm blown on brakes and tires than ethyl glycol.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26668 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6363 times:
The following excerpt from a recent Transport Canada incident report involving a Beech 1900 that landed with frozen brakes on the left side resulting in two flat tires, says the carrier's aircraft are equipped with a brake de-icing system. How does such a system work? Does it involve heat or de-icing fluid? The temperature in Edmonton on the day in question (December 7) was very cold, around -30C, and around -15C at the destination.
Central Mountain Air (CMA) Beech 1900D operating CMA Flight 793, IFR Edmonton (CYEG) to Fort St. John (CYXJ), left side main landing gear wheels were frozen. Failure of deicing equipment is presumed. Aircraft landed with left side wheels locked. Was able to bring aircraft to a safe stop 300 ft past hold line for runway 02/20, resulting in both tires flat. Passengers were taken to terminal by vehicle and local technicians began working on removing the aircraft from runway (14:10). Winds did not cause issues in using runway 02/20, so aircraft was able to stay on runway until CMA technicians were able to arrive with equipment to lift aircraft and fix wheels/brakes (17:45). Aircraft was repaired and was able to taxi back to ramp (20:35). Plane departed for YVR around 21:30.
UPDATE: The operator suspects frozen brakes as the aircraft departed Edmonton International Airport during conditions of blowing snow. Company aircraft are equipped with brake de-ice systems. There was no damage to the aircraft other than the tires.
UPDATE: A P-Memo was issued to company flight crews to emphasize the importance of using brake de-ice systems when conditions warrant (Beech SOP 1.14.19 refers).
Freeze3192 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6240 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23): The following excerpt from a recent Transport Canada incident report involving a Beech 1900 that landed with frozen brakes on the left side resulting in two flat tires, says the carrier's aircraft are equipped with a brake de-icing system. How does such a system work? Does it involve heat or de-icing fluid? The temperature in Edmonton on the day in question (December 7) was very cold, around -30C, and around -15C at the destination.
My knowledge is limited, but hot bleed air from the engines is blown onto the brakes to deice them after being up at altitude.