Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Do Airlines Share Pilots In Emergency Situations?  
User currently offlineAT From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1044 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

I've often wondered this.

Let's say an American Airlines 777 flight departing from London suddenly loses a pilot (say either the original pilot falls sick, or happened to be coming from another inbound flight that is severely delayed), but there are extra British Airways pilots on base at Heathrow.
Can they request use by another airlines' available pilots?

I assume that the answer would probably be no, but am not sure. And if so why not? Airlines do it with passengers all the time- for example if a passenger misses a connection they will often put her or him on a different carrier's flights.

A related but distinct question is are there operational differences between different airlines on teh same aircraft? In other words, using the aforementioned example, would a British Airways 777 pilot be able to fly an AA 777 if needed without any additional training? And if not, wha sort of procedural differences would there be?

And a final, even more tangential question: are pilots on any given aircraft trained for all engine variants or are they specialized- e.g., can a RR 777 captain fly a GE 777 or vice versa?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLrdc9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3831 times:



Quoting AT (Thread starter):

A related but distinct question is are there operational differences between different airlines on teh same aircraft? In other words, using the aforementioned example, would a British Airways 777 pilot be able to fly an AA 777 if needed without any additional training? And if not, wha sort of procedural differences would there be?

Would be able to fly it, yes, but the SOP varies by airline.

And No, airlines do not share pilots.



Just say NO to scabs.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3815 times:



Quoting AT (Thread starter):
Can they request use by another airlines' available pilots?

No.

Quoting AT (Thread starter):
A related but distinct question is are there operational differences between different airlines on teh same aircraft? In other words, using the aforementioned example, would a British Airways 777 pilot be able to fly an AA 777 if needed without any additional training? And if not, wha sort of procedural differences would there be?

This is the biggest problem (the other being that someone with a UK license can't serve as a crewmember on a US-registered airplane, but it would still be true if you tried to substitute a UA 777 pilot for an AA 777 pilot). Every airline has different procedures, and some have different cockpit layouts (different panels in different places) based off of those procedures. To take someone who is fully versed in a certain way of doing things and to put them in a cockpit with someone else who is fully versed in a different way of doing things is bad from a CRM point of view - you create the opportunity for lots of expectancy errors, and those can really ruin your day.

In a dire inflight emergency, you'll just work around that sort of stuff, because having two people up front is better than one, even if one of them hasn't been trained on the airline-specific procedures - they still have an understanding of how the airplane works, they can manipulate switches if need be, and that'll do in a pinch. But it's not something you'd want to dispatch a flight with.

Liability comes into the picture as well - if something were to happen, you'd have people wondering why the airline let someone in the cockpit who wasn't trained to the same standards as the other pilot, and you'd have a huge lawsuit on your hands.

The reason that airlines can do it with passengers is because a passenger doesn't have any effect on the operation of the flight, regardless of who they actually booked their ticket with. A pilot has a significant effect on the operation of the flight.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25406 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

NO.

Each pilot is certified per a specific operators procedures. AA has different company and aircraft operating procedures then another carrier. Also aircraft cockpit design and, aircraft technical procedures are very often set up different amongst different carriers.

Additionally in your case, a big issue is the BA pilot does not hold the requisite US licenses anyhow.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3706 times:

Union agreements would probably also prevent this from happening.

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3580 times:



Quoting AT:
Do Airlines Share Pilots In Emergency Situations?

I would say that airlines could share pilots, but not in the example situations you describe. When I think of an emergency situation I think of natural disaster or outbreak of war. A sick pilot doesnt justify the risks listed by the previous posters.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

Interesting enough, before I was furloughed, I flew 747 classics for a U.S. Part 121 supplemental air (cargo) carrier. I happen to collect the World Air Routes/Just Planes series of DVDs, and I was watching a cockpit video of the very airplane type I flew at another carrier. The airplane was being operated in a totally different manner than what I was trained to do--entirely different checklists responses, who performs various steps, etc. Their way was no more correct or incorrect than my way, but the important thing is that all the crews in a certain carrier are standardized and know exactly what to expect from the other crewmembers. Our procedures were adapted from Pan Am back in the day; their procedures obviously were developed elsewhere.

Your thread title mentioned the term "emergency", so I guess that would depend on your definition of that term. A pilot who gets sick before the flight is not an emergency. Now if we're halfway across the country and one of the two pilots croaks midflight, knowing there was a pilot onboard who is fully qualified on that type, it probably wouldn't hurt to call that individual up to help with radios/etc and get the jet on the ground safely.

Routinely swapping pilots out would be a violation of FAA regs, since each carrier must train and qualify their crewmembers according to their ops specs and company procedures. It's probably also not smart from a security standpoint.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

Not in Emergency conditions as you noticed,as Company SOP would vary.Also manpower training on the type would differ depending on customer configured type Aircraft.

However an airline can officially hire crew from another airline after a formal agreement has been signed for the same,taking into account that the hired crew are adequately qualified to operate the Airlines type Aircraft.

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineAvrich From New Zealand, joined Apr 2009, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3449 times:

Am I right in thinking that the airlines insurance companies would also have major issues with a scenario like that?


"Time....the fighter pilots enemy" Flt Lt CJW Roscoe Tanner 1962-1991
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3427 times:



Quoting Jhooper (Reply 6):
Routinely swapping pilots out would be a violation of FAA regs, since each carrier must train and qualify their crewmembers according to their ops specs and company procedures

Wasn't something like that done in the past with interchanges, where a crew from airline B would fly airline A's aircraft on a given segment in a sort of precursor to a codeshare? I do recall hearing that it was unwieldy, as the crew had to carry additional documentation detailing the differences in aircraft. But as far as I know, it was always a complete crew, not just one pilot stepping in, which would minimize the risk of miscommunication and differences in procedure.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3420 times:



Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 4):
Union agreements would probably also prevent this from happening.

This has nothin to do with unions. These are seperate operating certificates, so it's illegal for me to jump in another carriers 767/757 and operate it. Different Flight operations manuals, different procedures, different regs.

Now if I'm sitting in the back and the old "is there a pilot on board" comes over the PA.... I could get by just fine on whatever airplane we were on. However, that's a whole other deck of cards....



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2323 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3274 times:



Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
I would say that airlines could share pilots, but not in the example situations you describe. When I think of an emergency situation I think of natural disaster or outbreak of war. A sick pilot doesnt justify the risks listed by the previous posters

That would be my take on it as well. You're on some small island, and there is a typhoon coming, or a coup coming, you have a plane load of pax you are trying to evacuate, and something happens to one of your pilots. In a case like that, I could see a pilot from another airline stepping in to get the flight out.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3262 times:

The only situation you would see a BA 777 pilot operating an AA 777 flight is if two of the pilots became incapacitated over the middle of the Atlantic (there would be 3 pilots because onboard because of the need for an IRO). In this case there would be only one pilot left and while he is technically competent to operate the aircraft himself it would be beneficial to have another pilot.

Of course the only way they would let that BA 777 pilot (or any other airline pilot) come up to the cockpit is if his identity could be verified for security reasons. This would be a unique situation and in this case the remaining AA pilot would have the authority to circumvent the FARs in order to ensure the safe completion of the flight.

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 10):
This has nothin to do with unions. These are seperate operating certificates, so it's illegal for me to jump in another carriers 767/757 and operate it. Different Flight operations manuals, different procedures, different regs.

Absolutely, procedures at different airlines operating the same type are similar but not identical. There are variations in call outs, procedures, checklists, etc. so legally they couldn't just swap before the flight in LHR because someone is sick. AA would be SOL in this situation.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3200 times:



Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 4):
Union agreements would probably also prevent this from happening.

No reason to have an agreement or contractual clause for something that would be illegal on several different levels  Wink


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3091 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 13):
No reason to have an agreement or contractual clause for something that would be illegal on several different levels

But I wouldn't be surprised if the union had the rule anyway just to make extra-doubly sure.  Smile

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3078 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
But I wouldn't be surprised if the union had the rule anyway just to make extra-doubly sure.

There are regs about who can occupy a pilot seat on the aircraft and when. No union contract could countermand the FAA.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Wasn't something like that done in the past with interchanges, where a crew from airline B would fly airline A's aircraft on a given segment in a sort of precursor to a codeshare? I do recall hearing that it was unwieldy, as the crew had to carry additional documentation detailing the differences in aircraft.

This has been done, you are right, it is unwieldy. The aircraft is operated by carrier A to a point where it is taken over by a crew from carrier B and operated as a carrier B flight. This would usually happen to get around certain political or diplomatic tangles. However, you did not mix and match crews from A and B.

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 11):
You're on some small island, and there is a typhoon coming, or a coup coming, you have a plane load of pax you are trying to evacuate, and something happens to one of your pilots. In a case like that, I could see a pilot from another airline stepping in to get the flight out.

That is pretty extreme but you might get away with it in that particular scenerio. Even though you may disregard regs in an emergency, you will still have to be able to show why doing so was the safest course of action.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3208 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3054 times:



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
Wasn't something like that done in the past with interchanges, where a crew from airline B would fly airline A's aircraft on a given segment in a sort of precursor to a codeshare?

There was a CivAv thread some months back about the Concorde flying domestic routes within the US, and those flights requiring a partial (or full?) US crew, as well as temporary re-registration of the aircraft. I'm sure if I looked a bit harder I could dig that thread up but I'm not having much luck right now.  irked 


User currently offlineTheGMan From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3041 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):
There was a CivAv thread some months back about the Concorde flying domestic routes within the US, and those flights requiring a partial (or full?) US crew, as well as temporary re-registration of the aircraft. I'm sure if I looked a bit harder I could dig that thread up but I'm not having much luck right now.   

I remember it. Braniff crews. Braniff manuals. Something about all BA documentation had to be hidden during flight.


User currently offlineCpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3024 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):
There was a CivAv thread some months back about the Concorde flying domestic routes within the US

The Braniff crew flew it, only subsonic - insurance required a crew member from the original airline to be on board (observing?) and the BA manuals were apparently stowed in the LAV if I remember right.

Don't know what the AF/Braniff procedures were though. When the plane flew onwards, the N rego became a G or a F registration. EG: G-N94AE. Quite funny procedures.  Wink


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2833 times:



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 15):
The aircraft is operated by carrier A to a point where it is taken over by a crew from carrier B and operated as a carrier B flight. This would usually happen to get around certain political or diplomatic tangles. However, you did not mix and match crews from A and B.

I think Delta and PanAm cooperated in such manner in the early 747 days. Flight was something like ATL-JFK-LHR.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2825 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

Your title asks "Do airlines share pilots in emergency situations?", which is unintentionally misleading. What you are describing is not an emergency situation, it is a crew availability and scheduling issue.

As others have said, this does not occur due to a variety of regulatory and training issues.


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2598 times:



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 20):
As others have said, this does not occur due to a variety of regulatory and training issues

But they do it with mechanics though..I have been on call maintenance for many airlines regardless of training.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineMovingtin From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2520 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 21):
But they do it with mechanics though..I have been on call maintenance for many airlines regardless of training.

But, you are working under the direct control of that airlines MTC controller.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2431 times:



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 21):
But they do it with mechanics though..I have been on call maintenance for many airlines regardless of training.

I guess the certifying supervisor is of the original Airline hence the SOP may permit.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Do Airlines Share Pilots In Emergency Situations?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Deicing: Do Airlines In Hot Countries Do It? posted Sat Sep 17 2005 22:56:37 by ETStar
Pilots: How Do The Airplanes Perform In Comparison posted Wed Feb 20 2002 17:06:40 by Seven37s
Do Airlines Perform Flight Tests? posted Thu Jul 23 2009 16:25:42 by Alexinwa
Do Airlines Rinse After De-icing? posted Sun Feb 22 2009 13:22:37 by Mascmo
Do Airlines Pick Interior Soundproofing Levels? posted Fri Jan 23 2009 09:59:36 by FLY2HMO
Pilots In Turkey posted Sat Nov 29 2008 09:34:13 by Winnie84
How Long Do Airlines Keep Maintenance Records? posted Fri Nov 14 2008 09:42:06 by Deaphen
Delta Airlines Tech/Ops in ATL posted Sun Jun 29 2008 10:36:13 by SXDFC
Jobs For Pilots In This Economy posted Fri Jun 6 2008 15:01:04 by Grockpilot
How Do Airlines Paint Rented Planes? posted Wed Jan 9 2008 17:19:50 by NWA320

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format