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So What Exactly Are The IFRs?  
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2505 times:

I've been reading my books and the AIP material on the matter and I think I have it down, but maybe some experts can help me on this.

Naturally, I'm referring to the IFRs in the UK. So the IFRs are:

  • The pilot must be suitably qualified to fly IFR.
  • The aircraft must be suitably equipped for the route being flown. (The AIP had a list of requirements for avionics, which generally included VOR (just the one), ADF and DME and that was about it).
  • Adherence to minimum height rule although this doesn't seem to apply to IFR in VMC.
  • Adherence to quadrantal rule and semi-circular rule when above transition altitude.
  • Flight plan when flying in controlled airspace (though apparently, sometimes this can be passed over the radio).

    So is that it?

    The VFRs are pretty simple. In fact, near as I can tell there this is only one: Maintain VMC. I suppose having a flight plan when flying in classes B-D airspace and no flying in class A airspace may be considered VFRs too.

  • 18 replies: All unread, jump to last
     
    User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 725 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2447 times:
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    Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
    Adherence to quadrantal rule and semi-circular rule when above transition altitude.

    And in uncontrolled airspace, IIRC.

    Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
    Adherence to minimum height rule although this doesn't seem to apply to IFR in VMC.

    Are you sure about this? I thought IFR flights must be X number of feet above the tallest possible obstacle within Y number of miles of track.

    Then again, i'm only an IMC rated pilot... y'all pros and ATPL students should know better :P



    Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
    User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
    Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2428 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 1):
    And in uncontrolled airspace, IIRC.

    Of course. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 1):
    Are you sure about this? I thought IFR flights must be X number of feet above the tallest possible obstacle within Y number of miles of track.

    It says in my book and in AIP that there are exception to the minimum height rule.

    Quoting AIP ENR1.3:
    1.2 Minimum Levels
    1.2.1 Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except when specifically authorized by the appropriate authority, an IFR flight
    shall be flown at a level which is at least 1000 ft (300 m) above the highest obstacle located within 5 nm (9.25 km) of the estimated position
    of the aircraft; except that the United Kingdom regulations do not apply to an aircraft operating under IFR and flying at an altitude not
    exceeding 3000 ft (900 m) if that aircraft is clear of cloud with the surface in sight and in a flight visibility of at least 800 m.
    Note 1: The estimated position of the aircraft will take account of the navigational accuracy which can be achieved on the relevant
    route segment, having regard to the navigational facilities available on the ground and in the aircraft.
    Note 2: See also ICAO Annex 2, paragraph 3.1.2 and GEN 1.7 Differences.
    Note 3: The United Kingdom has no statutory requirements relating specifically to minimum IFR altitude when operating over high
    terrain or mountainous territory.



    User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

    The R in IFR/VFR stands for Rules, but I don't think it's intended the way you're trying to use it here. It's not a rule as in a regulation, but a rule as in a definition of the procedures. For example, speed limits are a regulatory rule, but the area rule for wing design means the technique or method for producing a design within provided limitations.

    Flying under Instrument Flight Rules means the flight is procedurally conducted by reference to instruments. That's it. In order to operate a flight under IFR, most parts of the world have implemented regulations that govern who, when, and how this may be done. In the USA, that includes being in constant 2-way radio communication with ATC, for obvious reasons. One of the Rules about IFR operations is that ATC will make it the highest priority to provide separation services to aircraft operating under IFR, but the pilot is still ultimately responsible to see and avoid other aircraft, whether they are operating under IFR or VFR.

    Flying under Visual Flight Rules means the flight is conducted primarily by visual reference to the ground. In Class G airspace, the minimum flight visibility is 1 Statute Mile, and the requirement is just to remain clear of clouds. Most people would not consider those to be prevailing Visual Meteorological Conditions, and that probably falls under the "legal but stupid" category of minimum regulations. Other airspace classifications have different requirements for flight visibility and distance from clouds in order to operate under VFR. Failure to adhere to any of them, or to the equipment, certification, communication, or other requirements defined in the regulation, is a violation of those rules -- but not a violation of Visual Flight Rules.



    Position and hold
    User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 6423 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2394 times:



    Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
    So is that it?

    In most places, there's also the issue of the aicraft itself, which must be not only equipped properly for IFR flight, but also up-to-date on maintenance and service inspections (in the US, some inspections, like the 30-day dual VOR receiver error check, are actually conducted by the pilots before flight  Smile ).

    These inspections usually pertain to the aircraft's flight instrumentation systems...



    Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
    User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 725 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2382 times:
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    Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 3):
    The R in IFR/VFR stands for Rules, but I don't think it's intended the way you're trying to use it here. It's not a rule as in a regulation, but a rule as in a definition of the procedures. For example, speed limits are a regulatory rule, but the area rule for wing design means the technique or method for producing a design within provided limitations.

    Yea, the OP's wording caught me out a bit, but I took it to mean "to be IFR, what do you have to do".

    Aren't two altimeters also a req for IFR?

    Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
    I suppose having a flight plan when flying in classes B-D airspace

    You don't need to file a formal flight plan for that. Imagine trying to cross a zone, and needed to file tons of paperwork just to do it. Just ask for a zone transit and give them the position report and estimates when they ask.



    Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
    User currently offlineBri2k1 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 988 posts, RR: 4
    Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2370 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 5):
    Aren't two altimeters also a req for IFR?

    Not for flight under the regulations in Part 91 of the FARs. The pitot (airspeed indicator) and static (altimeter, VSI, and airspeed indicator) systems must be inspected every 24 months though (91.411). A transponder with Mode S capabilities, meaning an altitude encoding capability, is a requirement for flight in Class A, B, and within 30 miles of the primary airport in Class C airspace, but the transponder can use the same altitude input as the primary altimeter, or have its own "blind" (not visible to the pilot) encoding altimeter.

    The club I rent planes from performs all their maintenance by the book, and I typically have no issues finding a properly equipped and maintained aircraft to fly IFR. The one I run into more commonly is the VOR Operational Test, which must be done no less often than every 30 days in order to fly under IFR (91.171).



    Position and hold
    User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
    Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2354 times:



    Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 6):
    A transponder with Mode S capabilities, meaning an altitude encoding capability

    Actually, the requirement is for Mode C, not Mode S.

    Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 6):
    a requirement for flight in Class A, B, and within 30 miles of the primary airport in Class C airspace

    The requirement for Class C is only within and above the airspace, not 30 miles around it. You're thinking of the Mode C veil around Class B airspaces.

    -Mir



    7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
    User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 725 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2339 times:
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    Quoting Glom (Thread starter):
    Naturally, I'm referring to the IFRs in the UK.



    Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 6):
    Not for flight under the regulations in Part 91 of the FARs

    What on earth is Part 91? Is that private? Commercial? etc?

    Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
    Actually, the requirement is for Mode C, not Mode S.

    Mind you, there was a push by EASA/CAA (I think) to make Mode S transponders mandatory. Lots of GA owners were unhappy as a result due to the costs involved.

    Quoting Bri2k1 (Reply 6):
    The one I run into more commonly is the VOR Operational Test, which must be done no less often than every 30 days in order to fly under IFR (91.171).

    We do that before each IFR flight at my place, but it's not a legal requirement to make a note of it and log it as such. It's just part of our standard instrument checks.



    Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
    User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
    Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2336 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 8):
    What on earth is Part 91? Is that private? Commercial? etc?

    Part 91 is private travel not for compensation or hire. This covers most general aviation, including aircraft owned by a corporation used in furthering that corporation's business (it doesn't cover charter operators).

    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 8):
    Mind you, there was a push by EASA/CAA (I think) to make Mode S transponders mandatory. Lots of GA owners were unhappy as a result due to the costs involved.

    The way the rule is written, even if you have a Mode S transponder, it still has to have Mode C capability.

    -Mir



    7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
    User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 6423 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2325 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 5):
    Aren't two altimeters also a req for IFR?

    In the US, no (as noted by Bri2K1 above, under US FAR part 91). Maybe other places...



    Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
    User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
    Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2312 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 8):
    Mind you, there was a push by EASA/CAA (I think) to make Mode S transponders mandatory.

    Altitude is still(and always was) reported by the mode-c capability of the transponder.
    The mode-s capability supplies additional information like Type of A/C, Speed bracket, A/C reg etc to ATC but is also used for Tcas communication.

    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 8):
    Lots of GA owners were unhappy as a result due to the costs involved.

    Not sure whether or not it is already mandatory in the US for GA A/C, probably not.



    The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
    User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21730 posts, RR: 55
    Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2307 times:



    Quoting Aviopic (Reply 11):
    Not sure whether or not it is already mandatory in the US for GA A/C, probably not.

    It's not. Mode C isn't even required if you can avoid the airspace where you need it. And in the western part of the country, there's plenty of room to do that.

    -Mir



    7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
    User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 6423 posts, RR: 3
    Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2294 times:



    Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
    It's not. Mode C isn't even required if you can avoid the airspace where you need it. And in the western part of the country, there's plenty of room to do that.

    -Mir

    And, ironically, TCAS will work just fine off of a Mode C return...  Wink Which makes one wonder why Mode S would be required for GA aircraft in the first place?



    Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
    User currently offlineAviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
    Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2257 times:



    Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
    Which makes one wonder why Mode S would be required for GA aircraft in the first place?

    Ask the EU authorities  Big grin
    After some 2 weeks from the mandatory date AMS ctr started to cry cause all they saw was just one big blob on their radar screens because everything is flying with mode-s including ultra lights and even gliders.
    For the time being all GA and other light traffic had to switch back to mode-c in the AMS ctr, not sure what the current status is though.
    According this document http://www.ivw.nl/onderwerpen/luchtv...twikkelingen/modestransponder.aspx
    mode-s is required as of March 2008 with the exception of SPL tma-1.



    Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
    And, ironically, TCAS will work just fine off of a Mode C return

    Yes and no.
    The altitude reporting of a mode-s transponder is more accurate, 25ft instead of 100ft.
    And a mode-c transponder can't be interrogated by ground radar and/or acas as both systems require the 24bit ICAO code.



    The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
    User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 725 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2187 times:
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    Quoting Glom (Reply 2):
    It says in my book and in AIP that there are exception to the minimum height rule.

    Hmm, I guess so, but surely you can't plan an IFR trip on that basis, thus minimum heights will apply at the planning phase, but one you're airborne, whether you adhere or not is ur call if the conditions permit. At least thats how I interpret it.

    Also, would you still have to follow semi-circular and quadrantal rules if in receipt of a deconfliction service or a procedural service? I've never asked for one en-route as I've tended to be on-top or below the transition level.

    Also, afaik, the Dutch Aviation Authorities aren't making themselves very popular with GA at the moment, with charges for ATC services and what not.



    Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
    User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
    Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2181 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 15):
    Hmm, I guess so, but surely you can't plan an IFR trip on that basis, thus minimum heights will apply at the planning phase, but one you're airborne, whether you adhere or not is ur call if the conditions permit. At least thats how I interpret it.

    True. It's probably more applicable to flight outside controlled airspace when you're not on a flight plan. Though, if you're outside controlled, not flying on a flight plan and in VMC, are your flying IFR or VFR? At that point, doesn't it just become a case of mentality?

    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 15):
    Also, would you still have to follow semi-circular and quadrantal rules if in receipt of a deconfliction service or a procedural service?

    The rule does specifically state the exception is for below transition altitude. What difference that makes I have no idea other than the fact that above transition altitude, obstacle clearance shouldn't be an issue or else someone hasn't set transition altitude correctly.


    User currently offline9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 725 posts, RR: 2
    Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2175 times:
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    Quoting Glom (Reply 16):
    What difference that makes I have no idea other than the fact that above transition altitude, obstacle clearance shouldn't be an issue or else someone hasn't set transition altitude correctly.

    What I meant was, outside controlled airspace, under a deconfliction service, above the transition level, the controller goes "G-ABCD, pop up traffic, left 10 o'clock, 1 mile. Tun right heading 090." Would he have to change my FL as well (assuming I was in a different quadrant)?



    Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
    User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
    Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2173 times:



    Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 17):
    Would he have to change my FL as well (assuming I was in a different quadrant)?

    I don't know but I would presume not because that heading is only for traffic avoidance and will shortly be changed back to the original.


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