C5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5874 times:
Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur? I know that without flaps or slats, you have to add probably 50-60 knots to your landing speed, so how safe would this be? If you are landing at an airport that has a short runway, but would normally be a non-issue with slats-flaps, would you have to divert to someplace that has a much longer runway, so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?
"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 9 Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5877 times:
The short answer is...not very often.
In 35 years of professional flying with large jet aircraft, I have only had to land with no flaps/LED's...once.
And yes, if the destination has a short runway, diversion is often necessary in the no flaps/LED situation.
Something to keep in mind if one works for an airline who is determined to carry minimal diversion fuel, as a matter of standard policy.
Tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5824 times:
Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter): would you have to divert to someplace that has a much longer runway, so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?
You'd divert because you can't safely stop on the available runway; the T/R's don't care at all and the brakes are expendable in a situation like that.
Tb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1398 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5813 times:
I've done it 3 times. Once in a thin wing Lear 24 on an SIC 12 month ride off a VOR circle, that was a fun surprise. Another on my Falcon 20 type ride again off a circle and I gave a Captain upgrade student one on a training flight once into DOV because it was long.
I haven't done them because I had to thankfully. On the Falcon you add 20 knots to Ref and add 25% to landing distance. The Lear I am pretty sure you add 50 knots to Ref so you are getting close to max tire speed at times in those.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4779 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5774 times:
Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter): Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur?
From a microscopic, anecdotal point of view, in the last 3 years I've seen 2 in PHX, both on CR9s.
Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter): so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?
At that speed you'd be more worried about max tire speed. Thrust reversers really don't have any problems and brakes can be easily replaced.
A diversion will be warranted based on whether or not the airplane can stop in the amount of runway available, as well as CFR capabilities.
Saab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1605 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5679 times:
In the CRJ-200 they happen with alarming frequency. The flap mechanism is notoriously unreliable and failures are not uncommon, though there have been measures put into place and the number of flap failures this winter (it's largely a winter issue) has been reduced greatly.
That's the bad news.
The good news is that it's not that big a deal. Landing speeds and distances are increased but that's really about it. It is calculated and then the pilots land on the appropriate runway. In the CR2 it's really more of an annoyance than a legitimate safety problem.
411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5470 times:
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5): Was that an abnormal situation to warrant a no Flaps/LED attempt.
Yes, flaps/slats would not extend on an L1011...an extremely rare occurance.
Vref then becomes Vref+50.
At heavier landing weights, 9,000 feet minimum runway length is required.
Otherwise, not a particular problem...except for hot brakes.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8785 posts, RR: 52 Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5455 times:
Tire speeds are usually designed to be 1mph above a zero flap landing at Maximum Landing Weight. If they aren't designed that way, they it is a bad design from the manufacturer. Sometimes problems happen after takeoff, so it is the goal to be able to come back for a landing.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3996 posts, RR: 36 Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5451 times:
Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 6): In the CRJ-200 they happen with alarming frequency. The flap mechanism is notoriously unreliable and failures are not uncommon, though there have been measures put into place and the number of flap failures this winter (it's largely a winter issue) has been reduced greatly.
That's the bad news.
The good news is that it's not that big a deal. Landing speeds and distances are increased but that's really about it. It is calculated and then the pilots land on the appropriate runway. In the CR2 it's really more of an annoyance than a legitimate safety problem.
Yep! I did 3 in 3 years. It was kinda nice coming down final actually nose up for once, too.
ARFFdude From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 138 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5337 times:
We usually have one every few months at my small airport, usually on CRJ2s. Not too big of a deal, we roll the trucks as a precaution, but with over 6,500' of runway, it's never been an issue.
ROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 576 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5317 times:
As others have said, it happens literally every day with CRJ-200's given the amount flying worldwide. Not a big deal usually.
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3996 posts, RR: 36 Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5236 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11): So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?
Concordegboad From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 38 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5021 times:
Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14): Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3996 posts, RR: 36 Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4928 times:
Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14): Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!
Comorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4721 posts, RR: 17 Reply 18, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4633 times:
Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 17): wish I could have said "thousands" but sadly it was only "hundreds"
Too bad your majestic steed flew off into the sunset! Lament not, my friend, the Gods will return Pegasus to you...
Laddie From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 489 posts, RR: 8 Reply 20, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4528 times:
Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter): Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur?
Kimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4504 times:
Was this is a non-flap landing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-ZYPbtQfwI
F- WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET MORE ONCE THIS SPLIT - STOPS THE OUTBOARDS WE AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN GET THE INBOARDS
F- OKAY NOW WE'VE GOT FLAPS FIVE ON THE INBOARDS AND A SPLIT ON THE OUTBOARDS
-F- OKAY THE INBOARDS ARE COMING TO TEN
F- NOW SPEED'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE STALL WARNING INDICATOR'S ON THE INBOARDS
YOU'RE OKAY YOU'RE AH YOU'VE GOT TEN FLAPS THAT SHOULD BE ONE SEVENTY BUT THE INBOARDS ARE UP AH THE OUTBOARDS ARE UP SO - TWO HUNDRED ONE NINETY'S PROBABLY GOOD SPEED -
C- CENTER THE TRIM CENTER THE TRIM http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr890224.htm
XFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3996 posts, RR: 36 Reply 22, posted (3 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4428 times:
Quoting Kimon (Reply 21): F- OKAY NOW WE'VE GOT FLAPS FIVE ON THE INBOARDS AND A SPLIT ON THE OUTBOARDS
-F- OKAY THE INBOARDS ARE COMING TO TEN
As you can see what you typed.... "flaps 5...and then flaps 10." Looks like it was a split on the outboards and the inboards were functioning at least somewhat normally.
In my opinion, a split flap situation is much more serious than a no flap.
25 Malmi18: Yesterday I came on board Blue 1 Avro 146JR from Zurich to Helsinki and we had a flapless landing. Everything was normal until the point where you'd n
26 Starlionblue: It does not. Wheel brakes are way more effective that thrust reversers anyway. Also there is a massively effective speed brake in the tail. View Larg
27 babybus: Once I was on a BA 737-200 and we landed with no flaps in BCN. Have no idea why. Been on lots of flapless take-offs.
28 474218: In my 32 years on the L-1011 program I can't remember a "no flap/no slat" landing! Lots of "no flap" landing and many "no slat" landings but never ha
29 FlyHossD: In November 1987, a Beech 1900C crashed on approach to Homer, AK. The aircraft was loaded 6 to 8 inches aft of the C.G. limit. In the accident report
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