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How Often Do No-Flap Landings Occur?  
User currently offlineC5LOAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7129 times:

Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur? I know that without flaps or slats, you have to add probably 50-60 knots to your landing speed, so how safe would this be? If you are landing at an airport that has a short runway, but would normally be a non-issue with slats-flaps, would you have to divert to someplace that has a much longer runway, so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7136 times:

The short answer is...not very often.
In 35 years of professional flying with large jet aircraft, I have only had to land with no flaps/LED's...once.
And yes, if the destination has a short runway, diversion is often necessary in the no flaps/LED situation.
Something to keep in mind if one works for an airline who is determined to carry minimal diversion fuel, as a matter of standard policy.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 2, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7082 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
would you have to divert to someplace that has a much longer runway, so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?

You'd divert because you can't safely stop on the available runway; the T/R's don't care at all and the brakes are expendable in a situation like that.

Tom.


User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1650 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7070 times:

I've done it 3 times. Once in a thin wing Lear 24 on an SIC 12 month ride off a VOR circle, that was a fun surprise. Another on my Falcon 20 type ride again off a circle and I gave a Captain upgrade student one on a training flight once into DOV because it was long.

I haven't done them because I had to thankfully. On the Falcon you add 20 knots to Ref and add 25% to landing distance. The Lear I am pretty sure you add 50 knots to Ref so you are getting close to max tire speed at times in those.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5739 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7030 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur?

From a microscopic, anecdotal point of view, in the last 3 years I've seen 2 in PHX, both on CR9s.

Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
so you don't kill your T/Rs and brakes trying to slow down from 210-230kts?

At that speed you'd be more worried about max tire speed. Thrust reversers really don't have any problems and brakes can be easily replaced.

A diversion will be warranted based on whether or not the airplane can stop in the amount of runway available, as well as CFR capabilities.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31712 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6988 times:



Quoting 411A (Reply 1):
In 35 years of professional flying with large jet aircraft, I have only had to land with no flaps/LED's...once.

Was that an abnormal situation to warrant a no Flaps/LED attempt.
regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6934 times:

In the CRJ-200 they happen with alarming frequency. The flap mechanism is notoriously unreliable and failures are not uncommon, though there have been measures put into place and the number of flap failures this winter (it's largely a winter issue) has been reduced greatly.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that it's not that big a deal. Landing speeds and distances are increased but that's really about it. It is calculated and then the pilots land on the appropriate runway. In the CR2 it's really more of an annoyance than a legitimate safety problem.



smrtrthnu
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6725 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):
Was that an abnormal situation to warrant a no Flaps/LED attempt.

Yes, flaps/slats would not extend on an L1011...an extremely rare occurance.
Vref then becomes Vref+50.
At heavier landing weights, 9,000 feet minimum runway length is required.
Otherwise, not a particular problem...except for hot brakes.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9818 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6710 times:

Tire speeds are usually designed to be 1mph above a zero flap landing at Maximum Landing Weight. If they aren't designed that way, they it is a bad design from the manufacturer. Sometimes problems happen after takeoff, so it is the goal to be able to come back for a landing.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6706 times:



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 6):
In the CRJ-200 they happen with alarming frequency. The flap mechanism is notoriously unreliable and failures are not uncommon, though there have been measures put into place and the number of flap failures this winter (it's largely a winter issue) has been reduced greatly.

That's the bad news.

The good news is that it's not that big a deal. Landing speeds and distances are increased but that's really about it. It is calculated and then the pilots land on the appropriate runway. In the CR2 it's really more of an annoyance than a legitimate safety problem.

Yep! I did 3 in 3 years. It was kinda nice coming down final actually nose up for once, too.

Speed was typically in the mid 170's.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineARFFdude From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6592 times:

We usually have one every few months at my small airport, usually on CRJ2s. Not too big of a deal, we roll the trucks as a precaution, but with over 6,500' of runway, it's never been an issue.

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineROSWELL41 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 803 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6572 times:

As others have said, it happens literally every day with CRJ-200's given the amount flying worldwide. Not a big deal usually.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6491 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?

No reason other than system failure.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 585 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6422 times:



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
So would a no flap landing only happen in case of a flap system failure or are there other reasons for carrying one out?



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 13):
No reason other than system failure.

Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!

No-flap landings - done hundreds of them!  Wink  Wink

Happy MLK Day

Bellerophon


User currently offlineConcordegboad From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 6276 times:



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!

No-flap landings - done hundreds of them!    

Happy MLK Day

Bellerophon

I see what you did there!  Smile


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6183 times:



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
Unless your four-engined passenger jet didn't have any flaps or slats fitted in the first place!

No-flap landings - done hundreds of them!

Happy MLK Day

Bellerophon

No fair! You always win when you play that card.  Big grin



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 585 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (4 years 11 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6135 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 16):
No fair! You always win when you play that card.

Yes, sorry,  Embarrassment , I promise not to play it again for at least a week! Big grin

I wish I could have said "thousands" but sadly it was only "hundreds".

Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineComorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5888 times:



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 17):
wish I could have said "thousands" but sadly it was only "hundreds"

Too bad your majestic steed flew off into the sunset! Lament not, my friend, the Gods will return Pegasus to you...  Wink


User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5854 times:

UAL 811 had no flaps just inboards.

User currently offlineLaddie From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 624 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5783 times:



Quoting C5LOAD (Thread starter):
Obviously, they are not normal, but how often do they occur?

Every time I fly my Stearman. Big grin

Oh, wait, are you talking about jets?


User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 11 months 3 days ago) and read 5759 times:

Was this is a non-flap landing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-ZYPbtQfwI
F- WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET MORE ONCE THIS SPLIT - STOPS THE OUTBOARDS WE AND OLD: Guangzhou - Baiyun (CAN / ZGGG) (closed), China">CAN GET THE INBOARDS
F- OKAY NOW WE'VE GOT FLAPS FIVE ON THE INBOARDS AND A SPLIT ON THE OUTBOARDS
-F- OKAY THE INBOARDS ARE COMING TO TEN
F- NOW SPEED'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE STALL WARNING INDICATOR'S ON THE INBOARDS
YOU'RE OKAY YOU'RE AH YOU'VE GOT TEN FLAPS THAT SHOULD BE ONE SEVENTY BUT THE INBOARDS ARE UP AH THE OUTBOARDS ARE UP SO - TWO HUNDRED ONE NINETY'S PROBABLY GOOD SPEED -
C- CENTER THE TRIM CENTER THE TRIM
http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr890224.htm


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5683 times:



Quoting Kimon (Reply 21):
F- OKAY NOW WE'VE GOT FLAPS FIVE ON THE INBOARDS AND A SPLIT ON THE OUTBOARDS
-F- OKAY THE INBOARDS ARE COMING TO TEN

As you can see what you typed.... "flaps 5...and then flaps 10." Looks like it was a split on the outboards and the inboards were functioning at least somewhat normally.

In my opinion, a split flap situation is much more serious than a no flap.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5621 times:



Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 22):
split flap situation is much more serious than a no flap.

That is precisely why Captain Cronin is the greatest of all pilots who handled the most impossible of situatons.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8956 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (4 years 11 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5574 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting Laddie (Reply 20):
Every time I fly my Stearman

Which engine do you have?



Intentionally Left Blank
25 Malmi18 : Yesterday I came on board Blue 1 Avro 146JR from Zurich to Helsinki and we had a flapless landing. Everything was normal until the point where you'd n
26 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : It does not. Wheel brakes are way more effective that thrust reversers anyway. Also there is a massively effective speed brake in the tail. View Larg
27 babybus : Once I was on a BA 737-200 and we landed with no flaps in BCN. Have no idea why. Been on lots of flapless take-offs.
28 474218 : In my 32 years on the L-1011 program I can't remember a "no flap/no slat" landing! Lots of "no flap" landing and many "no slat" landings but never ha
29 FlyHossD : In November 1987, a Beech 1900C crashed on approach to Homer, AK. The aircraft was loaded 6 to 8 inches aft of the C.G. limit. In the accident report
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