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Explanation Needed On The Term "8 Greens"  
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zfw3w3FRMA
What is meant by "I got 8 greens from the undercarriage"
Many thanks!

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17015 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

As I understand it "greens" means the gear is down and locked. One green light per leg. However the 747 has 5 legs so that can't be it.

The 747 does have a total of 8 axles on the mains, so maybe something there?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

Who knows.. just bad acting and made up words. I've read the actual CVR recordings and I don't recall that ever being said...besides, there really is no reason to care about your landing gear being down and locked at that point.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5391 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

There is only one green light on a B747-Classic on the P-3 (or maybe it's the P-2) panel (up front). On the FE's panel, he can 'view' each gear individually using the primary and alternate switches. But, that still only accounts for 5 green lights. The other lights on that panel are amber.


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

I just re-read the KLM CVR and there is nothing like that on the tape. The only thing that comes close is a comment about the leading edge slats.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2453 times:



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
I just re-read the KLM CVR and there is nothing like that on the tape. The only thing that comes close is a comment about the leading edge slats.

On the L-1011 landing check list the FE is to report "14 greens" when asked "leading edge slat". The slat panel on the FE panel has 14 green lights (numbered 1 to 7 for each wing) that illuminate when the slats are full down. There is also a gage that shows slat movement and a slat lock switch.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5391 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2424 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 5):
On the L-1011 landing check list the FE is to report "14 greens" when asked "leading edge slat".

Now, there are 8 green lights on the back panel for the leading edge devices, but I've never heard the call-out in the dozen or so or more times I've ridden up front.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2400 times:



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 6):
Now, there are 8 green lights on the back panel for the leading edge devices, but I've never heard the call-out in the dozen or so or more times I've ridden up front.

No standard procedure would have you do that...that panel is considered to be out of the field of view of the flight crew, so you can't use it for normal procedures.

Tom.


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2109 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2377 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
I just re-read the KLM CVR and there is nothing like that on the tape. The only thing that comes close is a comment about the leading edge slats.

Correct,

KLM 747-200 "Before Take Off" checklist only contained the item :

Flaps ..................................10 or 20, lights green.
(check of the actual Trailing Edge flaps position and the green Leading Edge Flap Light on the Pilots panel, above the vertical tape flap indicator )

Otherwise no green lights were mentioned in this flight fase.

Remark :
The eight amber (transit) and 8 green (fully extended) Leading Edge Flap position lights on the F/E panel are already checked by the flight engineer when monitoring the flap extension during taxi out and are not mentioned. Only the master green L.E. light is checked on the flap indicator at the pilots panel before T/O.

[Edited 2010-01-17 12:47:10]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2290 times:



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 6):
Now, there are 8 green lights on the back panel for the leading edge devices, but I've never heard the call-out in the dozen or so or more times I've ridden up front.

I can supply a picture of the "14" green lights on the FE slat panel if you need it.

The following web site describes a tail drag accident that occurred in August 1996. The TWA crew failed to follow the landing check list, which would have identified the failure of the leading edge slats to fully extend, which resulted in a full flap no slat landing. I was part of the NTSB accident investigation team. It was during this investigation that I saw TWA Landing Check List that calls for the FE agreement that all "14" slats are extended by verifying the "14" green lights.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
No standard procedure would have you do that...that panel is considered to be out of the field of view of the flight crew, so you can't use it for normal procedures.

I think you will find that the FE is a member of the flight crew.

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/1997/A97_97_98.pdf


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5391 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2277 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
I can supply a picture of the "14" green lights on the FE slat panel if you need it.

14 green lights for leading edges on the FE's panel? Why and where? There are 8 PDU's, 4 each side. Did they have a green light for each leading edge panel?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 2254 times:



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 10):
There are 8 PDU's, 4 each side. Did they have a green light for each leading edge panel?

If by PDU you mean Power Drive Unit the L-1011 leading edge slat system has only one (1). The slat PDU has two (2) hydraulic motors that turn torque tubes (shafts) that drive the fourteen (14) ballscrew actuators that position the slats.


User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5391 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 1 week ago) and read 2243 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 11):
If by PDU you mean Power Drive Unit the L-1011 leading edge slat system has only one (1). The slat PDU has two (2) hydraulic motors that turn torque tubes (shafts) that drive the fourteen (14) ballscrew actuators that position the slats.

I apparently missed the transition from B747 (Classic) to L-1011. apologies, I was talking B747.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2224 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
No standard procedure would have you do that...that panel is considered to be out of the field of view of the flight crew, so you can't use it for normal procedures.

I think you will find that the FE is a member of the flight crew.

Indeed. I fell into the same trap that Fr8Mech did:

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 12):
I apparently missed the transition from B747 (Classic) to L-1011. apologies, I was talking B747.

Worse, I was talking two-crew Boeing's, not Classics and not L-1011's.

Tom.


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2109 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 12):
I apparently missed the transition from B747 (Classic) to L-1011. apologies, I was talking B747

I never mentioned the L-1011 and stayed with the 747, because I never operated the L1011.

But, let's clear up some things :

I contacted my former (retired) KLM-Instructor what the proper procedure was during that time (1976), because I joined KLM just after the Tenerife crash.

He told me the following :

The phrase "eight greens" was sometimes used by the F/E to clarify that all Leading Edge Flaps were extended.
The correct answer on the item "Flaps" was ................ 10 or 20, lights green

But some answered : 10 or 20, eight greens.

This was not according Standard Operating Procedures but was caused, by the Lufthansa B747-130 crash in Nairobi in November 1974.
This accident was caused by a Take Off made with retracted LE flaps.
Several modifications were made after that accident in the LE logic and warning system to prevent a similar kind of accident.
Some F/E's wanted to check for additional safety all eight LE annunciator lights on the F/E panel before T/O and responded sometimes with "eight greens".
It was a "hot topic" during that time.

But as stated before, "8 greens" was not mentioned on the CVR of the Tenerife accident.

[Edited 2010-01-17 23:58:30]

[Edited 2010-01-18 00:01:03]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

747classic!
Excellent!
Many thanks!


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1987 times:



Quoting 747classic (Reply 14):
I never mentioned the L-1011 and stayed with the 747, because I never operated the L1011.

It was I who brought up the L-1011. As I explained the term " 14 greens" was the used on the TWA L-1011 landing (and takeoff) check list as the FE response to the the FO's question slats extended. Therefore I assumed other aircraft had the same procedure. Sorry to confuse anyone.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 6 days ago) and read 1863 times:



Quoting 474218 (Reply 16):
As I explained the term " 14 greens" was the used on the TWA L-1011 landing (and takeoff) check list as the FE response to the the FO's question slats extended

Not just TWA, either....every other airline I have flown the L1011 for, used the same verbage/procedure.


User currently offlineBellerophon From United Kingdom, joined May 2002, 583 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1731 times:

747classic

Quoting 747classic (Reply 14):
...I contacted my former (retired) KLM-Instructor what the proper procedure was during that time ... He told me ... Some F/E's wanted to check for additional safety all eight LE annunciator lights on the F/E panel before T/O and responded sometimes with "eight greens"...

Yes, and the same response, for the same reasons, was given by B747 F/Es in BOAC/BA right until the last B747-200 left BA service.

Best Regards

Bellerophon


User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

Any photos of LE annunciator lights on the F/E panel?
Many thanks!


User currently offlineDAirbus From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 593 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1612 times:
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Quoting Kimon (Reply 19):
Any photos of LE annunciator lights on the F/E panel?
Many thanks!

You can see them here on the right above the red door covering the fuel jettison switches.


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