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Question Regarding AN-225 Crew Size  
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6703 times:

Does anyone know why it needs a 6-crew?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6707 times:



Quoting Kimon (Thread starter):
Does anyone know why it needs a 6-crew?

Pilot + copilot (self explanatory)
2 flight engineers (6 engines + complex systems)
Navigator (self explanatory)

That's 5...the 6th I've found listed various as "communications specialist", which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, or "loadmaster," which makes a lot of sense.

Tom.


User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

Great,Tom!
Have you ever seen one?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17109 posts, RR: 66
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

My guess is that the reason for the commo guy is that the pilots probably don't speak English well. He handles ATC comms.

To expand on the navigator, the An-225 often flies non "standard" routes and goes all over the place. Navigator is a good idea. I saw a show on Antonov flight services. The dispatchers typically start route planning with a globe and a piece of string. A lot of missions are "all new" and have to be figured out from scratch, as it were.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Starlionblue: I guess that at Antonov, guys flying the An-225 know English well enough. Still, this is just the way its done in the east. If there is not a specific comm guy, navigator often takes care of radios. It is simply a way how 4+ men cockpit works.


The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

Don't forget that Soviet philosophy was to gainfully employ as many as possible, (and this even extended all the way down to flight crews) so systems automation wasn't very much in favor when the AN-225 and AN-124 were designed...  twocents 


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6635 times:



Quoting Kimon (Reply 2):
Have you ever seen one?

Sort of. One attended the Abbotsford Airshow back in 1989 when I was just youngster; I didn't go to the airshow that year, but I could see the approach route from my parents' house and I saw it flying in. It looked *big* even from many miles away.

Tom.


User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
One attended the Abbotsford Airshow back in 1989 ...

If you have seen one, you have seen them all.

I saw it at LAS, watched it take off from my shop on the other side of Russell Road. Looked like it was standing still when it took off. It's so large the size hides the speed.

PMK


User currently offlineOV735 From Estonia, joined Jan 2004, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6484 times:

The radio officer is responsible for air-to-ground communication with ATC - it's a tradition of the Soviet/Russian air force. The position used to exist on some civilian types as well, like the Tu-104/114/124 and Il-18/62. Western operators usually bypassed that, leaving comms for the pilots or navigator to handle.

I have no doubt that the An-225 could in reality operate with 3 cockpit crew instead of 6 (2 pilots + 1 F/E). Still, the certification requirements are kept in place in Russia and satellites, so you'll see 3-crew even in the glass-cockpit Il-96 and the fly-by-wire Tu-204.


User currently offlineAlwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6463 times:



Quoting Pmk (Reply 7):
If you have seen one, you have seen them all.

Although I am aware that this a common phrase, technically this is not correct: one is still "being build"..........supposedly. Although that project suffers from delays somewhat, and the A-350, Y3, Boeing 797, 7-10-7 and 7-11-7 will probably hit the skies before this baby will.

Quoting Pmk (Reply 7):
It's so large the size hides the speed.

It does, strange that an F-16 seems to take off faster than an A-380 for instance, while they could be doing exactly the same speed!

That always gives away remote controlled planes in them Youtube videos.
Some look very realistic, especially from a distance on a runway nicely done.......
I have seen a great A-380, B-747 and some brilliant Antanovs etc.
But the moment it takes off the sudden movements gives it away............

### "I am always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6388 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 1):
2 flight engineers (6 engines + complex systems)

Are they both working simultaneously......why.With today technology its surprising.

I'm just thinking about the number of crew for the loading  Smile

regds
MEL.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6388 times:

Full Russian crew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ugiCi5HPSk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfNb6mcFe2A&feature=response_watch

[Edited 2010-01-23 11:37:08 by kimon]

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6339 times:



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Are they both working simultaneously......why.With today technology its surprising.

Two major reasons: the AN-225 is not running on today's technology, and it was never a design goal for them to automate the flight engineer out of the cockpit. The plane is 20 years old, and the Russians weren't holding even with the West on flight deck automation back then. However, even if they had the technology, they had no real motivation to do so; the AN-225 was never built for the commercial environment and the concurrent pressures on crew operating costs that that entails.

Tom.


User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

Tom,
Do you know why the opted for an ugly high-wing and weird tails?
You are right that Soviet or FSU thinking about aviation is very different to ours.
Kimon


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6292 times:



Quoting Kimon (Reply 13):
Tom,
Do you know why the opted for an ugly high-wing and weird tails?
You are right that Soviet or FSU thinking about aviation is very different to ours.
Kimon

High wing to limit damage to wings and engines when taking of from gravel strips and the twin tail is because it was sdesigned to carry the Buran space shuttleso they opted twin vertical stabilizer to clear them of the turbolence.
As for the general layout it was just a upgraded An-124 to keep the cost low.
/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6277 times:

Well, it can sit basically centimeters from ground as high-wing. Makes loading hell of a lot easier. This aint no container hauler, remember.


The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6273 times:

The AN-225 should have been converted to a pax version.
Maybe they could have competed against the A380?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17109 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6268 times:



Quoting Kimon (Reply 16):
The AN-225 should have been converted to a pax version.
Maybe they could have competed against the A380?

Inefficient as a pax aircraft. The configuration makes it heavy compared to an A380. Also it exceeds the 80x80 meter box allowed by most airports for pax operations. You couldn't get it to most gates and it would have a hard time taxiing in many places. This is not a (big) problem for an outsize cargo hauler, but a pax aircraft needs to be agile.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6247 times:

Does anyone have any information about wheel loadings? A few years ago it was in Denmark with AAL / Transport Wing Aalborg as main airport but it was decided that the runway wasn't strong enough. They then wanted to use KRP / Helikopter Wing Karup which have several times had visits from C-5/An-124's but the runway wasn't strong enough there either so they ended up cutting down some tall trees so they could use Fighter Wing Skrydstrup.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6225 times:



Quoting Kimon (Reply 16):
Maybe they could have competed against the A380?

Very very unlikely. In addition to the size issue, and the fact that, at that time, the Russians were not competitive on technology or automation in the commercial field, they've got a severe configuration problem. There are good reasons that essentially all large passenger jets are low-wing and all large cargo jets are high-wing. Making one do the other's job is bound to be sub-optimal.

The AN-225 is very good for its specific mission...it's just a niche mission that doesn't have a huge amount of demand.

Tom.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31702 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

Looking at the craft.The tremendous load encountered by the Wing root is amazing,considering the Wheels are below the fuselage only.
Any idea how frequent are the area inspections at the Wing to body attachments on this type?

regds
MEL...



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKimon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6066 times:

AN-225:Does anyone have a photo of the flight deck?

User currently offlineSovietjet From Bulgaria, joined Mar 2003, 2636 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6004 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The twin tails were designed because the plane was supposed to carry Buran and other components in "piggyback" configuration. The tails were made this way to avoid the wake that would be left behind by the external cargo.

User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2196 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5996 times:

Six-crew cockpit of the An-225 :

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim De Groot - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Maciek Wolanski



[Edited 2010-01-24 11:07:38]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineMastropiero From Spain, joined Dec 2005, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5986 times:

Ok, I am sure this is a silly question, but judging by the width of the thrust levers, can a single pilot advance all six throttles at the same time? I have rather large hands and, by the size of the picture, I would have some troubles.... unless I´d rest my thumb on #1 and my pinky on #6.... maybe they are smaller than it looks in the picture?

25 Post contains links and images CitationJet : The B-52 pilots do it with eight. View Large View MediumPhoto © Kevin Jackson .
26 Kimon : So on the AN-225 and B-52 no flight engineer to push the throttles like on other 3-man crew flightdecks?
27 CitationJet : The B-52 have a crew of six. Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, navigator, and two EWO's I believe they are called. Only the two pilots sit near the t
28 Post contains images Mastropiero : I can´t find too many cockpit pictures of a B-52 to prove my point, but judging by the picture you posted, the PF has his hand on a much smaller set
29 OV735 : The F/E has his own set of throttles on the An-225, similar to the layout on Tu-154.
30 747classic : I cannot locate an extra set of throttles on the F/E panel on all An-225 pictures on the A-net database. Can you provide a picture of this feature.
31 Kimon : Quoting OV735 (Reply 29): The F/E has his own set of throttles on the An-225, similar to the layout Did all Soviet airliners have this system? Any pic
32 Vc10 : Could be wrong but I always thought the B-52 operated without a F/E
33 Post contains links and images OV735 : Oops... I was mistaken, the An-225 indeed doesn't have a second bank of throttles. So the throttles must indeed be controlled either by the pilots of
34 Post contains links 747classic : Correct. There are 5 crew members, Pilot, Copilot, Radar Navigator (Bombardier), Navigator and Electronic Warfare Officer They used to have six when
35 Rwessel : Didn't the tail gunner get moved to the forward cabin when they went remote on the G's and H's gun (so there were still six crew)? And that position
36 747classic : That's fully correct. So, at present we have 5 crew on the remaining B-52H's.
37 Kimon : AN-225:most interesting! So the F/E does not control throttles and has none of his/her own then what is his role regarding power settings takeoff and
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