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INS/FMS/fMC  
User currently offlineSalim From Lebanon, joined Jun 2001, 303 posts, RR: 1
Posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

hi,
Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

Just about every commercial aircraft has some form of indepedent position determining - IRS, INS, ADIRU,

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Most 727s don't...if it does, it's probably a retrofit/upgrade.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

The term "Commercial Aircraft" is a pretty broad paint-brush. Just about every commercial aircraft does NOT have an FMS or FMC and for that matter an INS system.

Many modern airliners however do have this sort of thing. Alot of it depends on what the role of the airliner is. Why spend money on IRS if you're involved in domestic service restricted to airways??



User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Just about every new turbine powered a/c being delivered today from a King Air 90 to a GVSP to an ERJ to the 747 400 has an FMS/GPS or FMS/INS, and has had for many years.

For the dispatch operations of a major airline, the effect is huge. The a/c is smarter, so dispatch ops are simplified due to point to point capability. In some cases, a greater variety of approaches is available, which increases access to airports that have less than stellar radar coverage, either as an alternate or primary airport. Accurate fuel burn/step climb/enroute wind data enables "What if" type of planning, which pays directly to revenue enhancement. Typically the graphics driven by the FMC make the a/c simpler to fly, so human factors issues are large...

I don't think one could find an airline that didn't spec an FMS of some kind on an airliner...

Really, it's just an FMS that enabled the F/A 18 to become what it is...but I digress.

Did the PC have an effect on the business environment?


User currently offlineCdfmxtech From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1341 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

The term "Commercial Aircraft" is a pretty broad paint-brush.
------------------------
YOU ARE CORRECT. I promise I'll never, ever, ever, ever do it again...


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

I forgot about maintenance functions...those are rather large as well.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2788 times:

EssentialPowr

I think you're mistaking other aircraft systems with an FMS in the case of the F/A 18 or the maintenance function you speak of.

Flight computers make unstable aircraft like the F/A 18 fly. CAMS systems provide integrated maintenance systems that can be merely displayed on an FMS.

And you're right...many new aircraft are spec'd with an FMS. But certainly not ALL commercial airliners. I know of many 737/727/DC-9 aircraft which are still quite abundant (and the MAJORITY) of Kingairs and SAAB 340s and EMB 120s and Dash 8s that do NOT have an FMS installed.

Of course there are exceptions, but remember what the original post said:

"Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks"

The answer is no.









User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

The older 737s, the 727s, DC9s and EMB120s may account for maybe 20% of the current airliner fleet in the US, and are being parked on a daily basis...

With regard to the F18, a computer is a computer whether one calls it an FMS or an APG xx...(yeah, yeah, an integrated radar). The F/A 18 has "Flip of the switch" mission capability b/c of its FMS that integrates the air to air functions of the radar with ground map mode, and many other functions. Active flight control or dynamic instability is only a small piece of the pie.

What was stated was that just about every commercial a/c does NOT have an FMS. I disagree with that statement, and went on to clarify it by stating that it's difficult to find an new 121 a/c today w/o one, and the reasons why they are desireable.

Your statement questioned their benefit for domestic use on the airways; if your point was valid, dropping the FMS out of commercial a/c would make them cheaper - and a lot less profitable for the reasons I mentioned. Every hear of an airline ordering a new a/c w/o FMS?

Why is that?


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

"Mistaking other a/c systems with an FMS in the case of the F18 or the maintenance function you speak of"

Ever heard of the Maintenance Page on the FMS???...The list of airliners that have it is...fairly significant!



User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

To go along with what "Essential" said, the FMS is one of the few pieces of equipment on an airplane that literally pays for itself many times over. The fuel savings accrued from direct routings is significant and amounts to a lot of $$$. From a situational awareness point of view they are about as good as it gets - PROVIDED the crew is proberly trained - watching your progress on a map displayed on one of the MFDs along with the other traffic and weather sure can make life easier. Additionally the flexibility and workload reduction that they provide when it comes to instrument approaches is another reason that they are pretty much standard equipment in all new turbine-powered aircraft, not just airliners.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Yes I agree that an FMS is useful. I just disagree that "ALL" commercial aircraft have one.

As far as the "maintenance" page you speak of, depending on the FMS this can represent 2 different things:

1) FMS maintenance pages that allow for FMS configuration programming and maintenance to the FMS

2) FMS CDU is used by the CAIMS system to display maintenance information. The FMS is just acting as a display. FMSs are convenient that way. They can be used to display TAWS terrain, Video, AFIS information (and control) etc. If you don't have an FMS you can use other displays.



User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

No statement made in this entire thread claimed ALL commercial a/c had them. PLs read what was written.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

EssentialPwr......

I didn't say that. It's the original question. You need to read the whole post before you comment.

It says:

"Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks"

The answer again in case you missed it was "no".



User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

"I just disagree that "ALL" commercial a/c have them"
You didn't say that? 3 comments above this...

I guess I misread it. Hhmmm.

Nope.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

EssentialPwr,

For some reason you've chosen me as a target for some sort of misplaced anger.

You've also chosen to do it a typically childish way. You extract snippets of statements and present them out of context.

For instance, I could present your statement:

"I don't think one could find an airline that didn't spec an FMS of some kind on an airliner"

Heck..I know of many airlines that ordered lots of DC-3s
with no FMS/FMC/INS....but if I was to present this as an arguement it would be silly. Don't you agree?



User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (12 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2718 times:

You write poorly.

Was an FMS available when that DC3 was built? Does anyone think it was? Did you read Jetguy's statement?

You can pick any snippet you want, and I'll defend it.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

How about this one:

"I guess I misread it. Hhmmm."

Yes. When I presented the DC-3 arguement I immediately stated that it was "silly". But true to form, you took one statement out of context and presented it as a new arguement. Just like I just did!

 Smile






User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (12 years 11 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Uhhh...

What's quoted above is called sarcasm.

No one ever claimed ALL commercial a/c have an FMS, other than you, by your statement that defends it. Where did that come from?

Apparently I'm taking all of your statements out of context. Does that reflect on you as a writer?

Keep it comin!!!


User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2805 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

I flew aboard an ex-QQ MD-80 series aircraft with American and the pilot said the aircraft had nothing more sophisticated than navigation radios. He explained that since the plane's service is strictly limited to domestic flights (west coast primarily), there really wasn't a need for an INS/IRS/GPS system.

User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

From Airplay:
"Just about every commercial aircraft does NOT have an FMS or FMC, and for that matter an INS system."

The following a/c come standard with an FMS/FMC (or INS) and have for years! Do they count?

Lear 31-45-55-60 (probably the 24-25 too)
Hawker series
Gulfstream series
Challenger series
Falcon series
CJ1/2
Citation series
King Air 90-200-300-350 (can be deleted)
Do328
ERJ
CRJ
Do328Jet
BAE146/Avro
717
737-300/400/500/600/700/800/900
A300/310/319/320/321/330/340
757
767 - all
747 - all
777
MD-11/87/88/90
DC-10
L1011
F70/100

The above list is, what, 75% of the turbine powered commercial fleet operating today under Part 91/135/121?

Most commercial a/c DO have and FMS/FMC or INS...

Cheers


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2652 times:

Thats funny,

I've been involved in certification of FMSs in the following out of your list in aircraft that were delivered without an FMS or FMC:

Lear 31 (and Lear 35)
Lear 24 (It just got a GPS because he didn't need an FMS)
BAE HS125-700
BAE HS125-800A
GI
GII
CL600-2A12
CL600-2B16(3A)
Falcon 50
Falcon 900
Cessna 500 (GPS only because they didn't need an FMS)
Cessna 550
Cessna 560
King Air 200 (very late serial number had a UNS 1C installed by STC...not factory)
SEVERAL other kingairs (GPS only because they DEFINITELY don't need an FMS)
737-200 (Just a GPS because the autopilot couldn't handle the roll steering from an FMS)
727-100 (Not on your list but got dual FMSs)
L1011

This doesn't have to be complicated. The original question was:

"hi,
Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks"


And the first response was:

"Just about every commercial aircraft has some form of indepedent position determining - IRS, INS, ADIRU,"

The simple answer is to the first question is "No not every airliner has INS FMC or FMS.

The simple "correction" to the first response is "No. There are very very many commercial aircraft with no FMS FMC or INS"

Here are some commerical aircraft flying today that are not fitted with or typically operate without this equipment:

Cessna Caravan
Cessna 185
Cessna 206
Cessna 207
Cessna 401
Cessna 402
Cessna 421
Cessna 404
Cessna 414
Cessna 310
Cessna Conquest
Cessna Titan
Piper Cherokee 6
Piper Navajo
Piper Aztec
Piper Super Cub
Piper Cheyenne
Beech 18
Beech Queen Air
Beech 99
Beech 100
Beech 90 (All variants)
Beech 200
Beech 1900
Dash 7
Dash 8-100
Twin Otter
Otter
Beaver
Turbo Beaver
Norseman
Jetstream 31
Jetstream 41
Pilatus PC-12
Cessna 500
Bell 206
Bell 204
Bell 205
CL600-1A11
Douglas DC-3
Douglas DC-4
Douglas DC-6
Curtiss C-46
YS-11
Argosy
HS-748
Convair 240/340/440/560/580
Falcon 10
Falcon 20
CL-215
737-100/200
727-100/200
SAAB 340 (Came with an optional UNS 1M later on but not many have it)
MBB series helicopters
F27
F28
EMB 110
EMB 120
Casa 212
Shorts 330
Shorts 340
BN Islander
BN Trilander

I left out many like the 172 that arguably are mostly owned privately or spend their "commercial" life in flying schools.

Here's some interesting facts: There were about as many Navajos produced as there are 737s (all variants). There are more Cessna 402s in the world than there are 767s. (All variants) There are roughly 4 times the amount of Bell 206's in the world than Airbus A320s.


Not all "commercial" aircraft are modern airliners and "most" of the "commercial" aircraft in the world are not fitted with INS, FMC or FMS.

I could agree that most "modern" airliners and business jets are fitted with an FMC or FMS? How's that?


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2647 times:

So some operators decided not to spec an FMS, and that means that MOST commercial A/C don't have an FMS? No way.

That's a real contemporary list of a/c ya got there.

All the piston equpiment - I heard FLexjet is buying 300 Cherokee 6s, slightly used of course. Seems everyone at Van Nuys and Dupage think about a '64 model Aztec is the only way to go cross country. Some outfit flying Trilanders in Puerto Rico doesn't exactly account for a large percentage of commercial aviation.

HHmmm... I haven't see a Shorts in operation in the US in a while...I'm sure they're 2 or 3 though. Same w/ the EMB110 and the CASA. Didn't Airtran start up with YS11s? Maybe that was JetBlue...no, no...they're flying DC3s and C46s.

And don't tell anyone, but I got a GREAT price on 20
HS-748s, and am planning on getting them certified with HUDs so I can run Horizon out of business.

Get real - most commercial a/c DO have an FMS. But I guess Jetguy is blowin smoke too...

Back on Thurs.


User currently offlineEssentialPowr From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Yeah I see it...Airplay's first response:

"The term "commercial aircraft" is a pretty broad paintbrush. Just about every commercial aircraft does NOT have an FMS or FMC and for that matter an INS system."

But wait, says I. Most DO!!

Then, he questions why they're necessary in a domestic airline application...

That's strike 2; so I had to respond.



User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

EssentialPwr,

Do yourself a favor and check out the pictures of aircraft on Airliners.net.

Then maybe you'll realize that the world doesn't stop at the US border. There are several of the aircraft types you questioned in commercial operation in the world.

Where I live there are several EMB110s, HS-748s, Navajos, KingAirs and even a couple of C-46's and DC-3s that operate commercially. Throw in several 737-200s and F-28s. Round that off with lots and lots of piston Cessnas. Travelaires, Barons, Metros.....SAAB 340s (without FMS/FMS), Caravans etc.

Don't underestimate the numbers of these aircraft. They represent a significant portion of the world commerical fleet.



25 EssentialPowr : Good point... "Several Emb110s, HS 748s and even a couple of C-46s where you live" certainly sounds representative of the commercial a/c fleet as comm
26 Airplay : That's funny....I don't remember the question asking about GPS..... Representative of the forum? That's not the issue. The question didn't ask "do mos
27 EssentialPowr : And again, There's not a lot of chat on the forum concerning the older a/c you mention, or the companies that fly them...Sorry, but that's how it is.
28 Post contains links Airplay : EssentialPwr: Never mind...just check out this page: http://www.aia-aerospace.org/stats/facts_figures/ff_99_00/Ff99p095.pdf Turbojets in commercial se
29 EssentialPowr : The original question was asked about AIRLINERS, not aged piston equipment. I don't think an AGcat in KAnsas and the 4000 beat up C152s/172s, PA 28s,
30 Airplay : EssentialPwr... Listen..... If you want to debate this, stick to the facts. I presented a document that verified that most "commercial" aircraft in th
31 EssentialPowr : Commercial aviation, on this forum and for the purposes of this discussion, mean a/c made by Emb, Canadair, Dornier, Boeing, Airbus, formerly Beech no
32 Airplay : EssentialPwr.... Gee...thanks for defining what commercial aviation. Too bad it's wrong. Just ask the FAA. And then ask some commercial pilots. Also,
33 EssentialPowr : Gee, the original post ASKED ABOUT AIRLINERS. You go define for everyone that cares that, in fact, a C172 used for flight instruction is a commercial
34 EssentialPowr : Would you mind acting as a referee on the Pressurization ACM topic? Thanks EssentialPowr
35 Airplay : Read my post you idiot...... I said I was commenting on the second post. The one that implied that commercial aircraft are all airliners....
36 EssentialPowr : Sorry, wrong comm switch.
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