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Senority/Bid Question  
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3674 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

I was wondering what happens to a pilot whe he has bid up to a new a/c type and can't pass his check ride or get typed?

Does he get passed by? or......?

Thanks,

B.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

It totally depends on the pilot working agreement they are working under, but most if not all carriers have very well defined processes for dealing with this rare circumstance.

User currently offlineYWG From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 1147 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Most legitimate airlines have a "X amount of failed rides, you're out (fired)" policy. X changing from airline to airline.


Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter):
Does he get passed by? or......?

At a couple of airlines that I know about, the pilot in question would revert to his previous type.
This happened in the past with some large American air carriers when the jets arrived on the scene.
These pilots (in nearly all cases, senior Captains) went back to flying the 4-engine piston types until retirement.


User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 1852 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Thread starter), "Does he get passed by? or......?"

I don't think I understand what you mean by this.

As previously mentioned, it depends on the Pilot Working Agreement or Contract at each individual company how they would handle a situation like this.

However, in general, if this were to happen during a pilot's probationary period (often the first year of employment), the Agreement would possibly allow the Company to terminate the pilot's employment.

Generally, once the pilot is no longer on probation, failure to upgrade to a new seat or new piece of equipment would result in that pilot returning to the same position that he or she was previously qualified.


User currently offlineairbuster From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 454 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting e38 (Reply 4):
Generally, once the pilot is no longer on probation, failure to upgrade to a new seat or new piece of equipment would result in that pilot returning to the same position that he or she was previously qualified.

Indeed, same at my airline, but the interesting question is:

What if the equipment he was previously on has been retired from the fleet.....



FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply 5):
What if the equipment he was previously on has been retired from the fleet.....

In many of these cases, how do you say...goodbye?


User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1775 times:

Quoting airbuster (Reply number 5), "What if the equipment he was previously on has been retired from the fleet....."

Quoting 411A (Reply number 6), "In many of these cases, how do you say...goodbye?" - Not Necessarily!


This situation would be getting into the area that would have to be considered a "special" case.

If this happened, I think the company would extend the training program to try to get the pilot qualified in the new position. At a certain point, if insufficient progress was made, a special Review Board would convene to discuss the options, which of course, might need to include termination. I think this would be the last resort, as the company would work very hard to qualify the pilot in the new position.

[Edited 2010-04-15 20:09:39]

[Edited 2010-04-15 20:13:10]

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1754 times:

Quoting e38 (Reply 7):
as the company would work very hard to qualify the pilot in the new position.

You are very naive.
Well meaning perhaps, but naive nevertheless.

Cast in point.
I personally knew several very senior B747 Captains at TWA (NY base) and when the 747's were withdrawn from the fleet, these Captains then needed to re-qualify on the B767.
Off to STL for the sim.
Who were the instructors there?
Junior 767 Captains...who were just itching to get rid of the senior guys, so they could move up the seniority ladder.
And, so it goes in some airline companies...like it, or not.


User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply number 8), "these Captains then needed to re-qualify on the B767. Who were the instructors there?
Junior 767 Captains just itching to get rid of the senior guys,."

In this situation, are you saying the 747 Captains were struggling with the 767 curriculum and unable to qualify, or the junior 767 instructors were falsely documenting performance in order to create a vacancy?

It sounds like very unprofessional and unethical behavior on the part of the 767 instructors, and had the company maintained a sound quality control of the instructor cadre, these instructors would have been removed from teaching and returned to the line.

The original question addressed an inability to qualify on new equipment, not what happens when an instructor corps is so unprofessional and unethical as to fail someone in order to gain their position.

In addition, your other quote, "Well meaning perhaps, but naive nevertheless."
Most companies I have worked for, with reference to a pilot being beyond the probationary period, want their pilots to succeed and seem to work really hard to help them qualify in a new position, particularly if they are struggling. Fortunately, I have not come across an instructor like you described, who is willing to sacrifice the career of a fellow pilot for his own benefit. I hope those types of pilots are few and far between!

[Edited 2010-04-15 20:41:07]

User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1739 times:

Quoting e38 (Reply 9):
I hope those types of pilots are few and far between!

You would undoubtedly be surprised at the number....in some companies.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

Quoting 411A (Reply 8):
...who were just itching to get rid of the senior guys, so they could move up the seniority ladder.
And, so it goes in some airline companies...like it, or not.

That's why we have a set script that must be followed so each & every crew that enters the sim gets exactly the same scenerio. No one can favor nor discriminate any one pilot or crew. Let's face it, any instructor can load any pilot up to the point of failure on any given day but that's not the purpose of training, is it. Granted in the old days it was always a test to see what load a pilot could handle but thank goodness the flaw in that thinking was finally realized and changed.Tthe idea of recurrent trg is to make you a better pilot and re-enforce the skills needed to face the ever changing challenges of today's int'l pilot.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5155 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1695 times:

At my carrier, we have a "Train to Standard" policy in the contract. That is, any failed attempts are sent back to training until they acheive the necessary standard. Same thing with switching aircraft types, notwithstanding the scenario 411A describes above, while a failed attempt is very rare, a failed attempt on the second try is almost non-existent.

Quoting 411A (Reply 8):
Junior 767 Captains...who were just itching to get rid of the senior guys, so they could move up the seniority ladder.
And, so it goes in some airline companies...like it, or not.

All of our training/testing sessions are recorded, for just such a scenario. If a trend occurs like the one described, it would be quickly investigated ... as this process is expensive enough to wonder why there would be failed attempts.

The only exception to the "Train to Standard" policy is a candidate's first Command training. The command process here is a long arduous ordeal lasting several (5!) months. At each level, the candidate is assessed and evaluated. If it is deemed that the process is not going to standard, then the candidate will not be retrained, just sent back to the previous equipment/position, and suggested he/she rethink trying again.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 49
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 11):
Quoting 411A (Reply 8):
...who were just itching to get rid of the senior guys, so they could move up the seniority ladder.
And, so it goes in some airline companies...like it, or not.

That's why we have a set script that must be followed so each & every crew that enters the sim gets exactly the same scenerio. No one can favor nor discriminate any one pilot or crew. Let's face it, any instructor can load any pilot up to the point of failure on any given day but that's not the purpose of training, is it. Granted in the old days it was always a test to see what load a pilot could handle but thank goodness the flaw in that thinking was finally realized and changed.

We have very defined scripts as well, and are very standardized for such contingencies. I have never seen the behavior 411A is describing, though I am not saying it doesn't exist, but that its existence is limited. What 411A did not address was the fact that many older (and more senior) pilots had MAJOR problems transitioning from analogue to EFIS aircraft, and that is something I know quite a bit about, having worked in a training department that transitioned many DC-9 and B-727 pilots to the B-757/767 and A-320. To say that the younger, more computer literate guys had an advantage over the guys who had been flying round dials for 30 years is an understatement. When the analogue fleets retired these guys, who had been putting off glass as long as they could, had nowhere to run. Most of them did fine, but many did not. Quite a few elected to retire or go elsewhere to avoid the EFIS. This is one more reason I am interested in the validity of the 'young guys picking on the old guys' scenario 411A describes. I would suspect that it's more likely that these "very senior B747 Captains" had problems checking out on the B-767. Not that it bothers junior guys to see more retirements, of course.


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