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Current State Of Spiroid Wingtip Development  
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10958 times:
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Last September, Flight International reported that Aviation Partners intended to test their spiroid winglets inflight on their Falcon 50.

That's the last I heard of it. Does anyone know whether they flew the spiroids? Or whether they are going to fly them at all this year? It's extraordinarily difficult to find any new info on the status of these things.




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22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOLy720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6724 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10899 times:

Tests starting June

http://www.flightcrewfinder.com/news/spiroids-winglets-way-forward

Aviation Partners Inc. (API) will begin testing “spiroid” loop-shaped wing tip devices on a Dassault Falcon 50 starting in early June 2010, Hank Thompson, the company’s vice president of operations, told Aviation Week today.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10877 times:
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Quoting OLy720man (Reply 1):

Nice find, thanks.

Any idea where the Falcon will be operating from? Photos of the spiroid-equipped Falcon testbed would be very nice to see.



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User currently offlineOLy720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6724 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10855 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
Any idea where the Falcon will be operating from? Photos of the spiroid-equipped Falcon testbed would be very nice to see.

Does anyone know the registration of the Falcon 50?



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 10835 times:
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Quoting OLy720man (Reply 3):

Does anyone know the registration of the Falcon 50?

Of the 9 Falcon 50s registered in the Seattle area (where API is based), one has a reg number that ends in JC (Joe Clark): N789JC. It's currently registered to "FALCON AIRCRAFT LEASING LLC", but I suppose it could be his.

None of the other N-numbers seem to have any connection...at least on the surface...to API.



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User currently offlineOLy720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6724 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10819 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
N789JC

Well that one doesn't seem to have been too active in the past months

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N789JC

and turned into a Falcon 20 for its most recent flight.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10815 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting OLy720man (Reply 5):
Well that one doesn't seem to have been too active in the past months

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N789JC

and turned into a Falcon 20 for its most recent flight.

Hmm....fishy...



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User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10781 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 4):
registered in the Seattle area

You should expand your search to include "State of Delaware". Most bizjets seem to be registered there   (due to liberal pro-business laws and lax state citizenship requirements...)



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 10612 times:
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How effecient sre these winglets compared to normal winglets? Could we see a 737 wit circles on the end instead of an oversized billboard?


Boiler Up!
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2699 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 10597 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 8):
How effecient sre these winglets compared to normal winglets?

Not too sure, but they sure look interesting! They sound like they have very exotic and specific geometry as well. Apparently;

"The spiroid geometry incorporates airfoil cross sections with specified thickness, camber and twist. The airfoil thickness varies in relation to the local sweep angle being a minimum at an intermediate position where the sweep angle is zero. The camber and twist vary approximately linearly and change sign at some intermediate position between the spiroid ends so as to produce the optimum spiroid loading"

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5102068.pdf

Regrads, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19688 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10560 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 8):
How effecient sre these winglets compared to normal winglets? Could we see a 737 wit circles on the end instead of an oversized billboard?
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...piroid-wingtip-technology-the.html

According to the above article, it's 10%. Winglets are about 3-5%. These gains are on top of any others, so if a manufacturer wanted to do, say GTF or LEAP and spiroids, they could concievably save 25% of fuel. That's no small thing.


User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 10285 times:
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so could boieng theoretically put these on a 737NNG and get coser to the A320 Enhanced


Boiler Up!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19688 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10136 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 11):
so could boieng theoretically put these on a 737NNG and get coser to the A320 Enhanced

But if you build a better mousetrap, someone will build a better mouse. All A has to do is put them on the A320 Enhanced and the advantage is lost.

I think that Aviation Partners is happy to develop these for any OEM who wants to pay for the development. It would be a pretty silly business model to refuse Airbus's money.


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 10066 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
I think that Aviation Partners is happy to develop these for any OEM who wants to pay for the development. It would be a pretty silly business model to refuse Airbus's money.

Not if the first OEM comes to them and demands an exclusivity agreement  (this tends to be the way Boeing does business these days...)



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 739 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9981 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
But if you build a better mousetrap, someone will build a better mouse. All A has to do is put them on the A320 Enhanced and the advantage is lost.

why didn't A do this with winglets on the A320 10 years ago?



Boiler Up!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9897 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 14):
why didn't A do this with winglets on the A320 10 years ago?

The A320 wing doesn't have much margin left in it...it took them ages to figure out a winglet design that works well without requiring too much structural modification. A spiroid is much worse from a retrofit point of view than a blended winglet.

Tom.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19688 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 9841 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):

The A320 wing doesn't have much margin left in it...it took them ages to figure out a winglet design that works well without requiring too much structural modification. A spiroid is much worse from a retrofit point of view than a blended winglet.

Right. But knowing that this technology is in the pipeline, if A is going to do an A320NG, they will likely design the wing with a bit of extra oomph in it so that it can accommodate such devices.


User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6724 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 15 hours ago) and read 9519 times:

Don't know how big a pinch of salt to take this with, but


http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...piroid-wingtip-technology-the.html

Last comment, from April this year

Im current machining the Spiroid for API, this is going to be an amazing addition on to any plane the pure size of this is insane, you can walk through the loop.

Whether this is for the F50 or another plane....????? Or if the machinist is talking out of turn... if he is one, that is.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19688 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

So it's been three years and I'm bumping this thread.

Is there any news on this front? It looks as if the current A320 and 737 replacements will not be using spiroids, at least in their initial iterations. Do we think it's possible that such wingtip devices might become available at a later date for either model?


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4230 times:

Look to my answer in this thread about the the 330 and 747-400 winglets:

Difference Between 330 And 744 Winglets (by baldwin471 Apr 6 2013 in Tech Ops)

It seems there is no magic to the shape of winglets, the spiroid ones are more effective then some others whereby they shift the lift distribution outward more and you need to beef the wing more. Not very good for a retrofit case. Then you have tip stall and de-icing considerations. Might take some time to figure out solutions to please FAA and then find someone who will implement it from scratch (not a retrofit really if it shall bring anything over the well established winglet or up-down winglet).

I think Aviation partner is busy getting people on the up-down bandwagon given the 737MAX marketing help they get. If it works for a 737 and looks cool then it works for my biz-jet as well. If the spiroid makes a biz-jet customer (not the crew, the one with the dow) feeling more anxious (because it is unusual) your effect is negative rather the positive  . Winglets is a lot about the cool high-tech look as well and that it feels safe and not spooky. Toroids feels spooky  Wow! .

[Edited 2013-04-06 18:50:09]


Non French in France
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4896 posts, RR: 16
Reply 20, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

1. A spiroid is nothing but a winglet for a winglet for a winglet ad infinitum, right?

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6649 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

I just saw the Falcon 50 with these things on wikipedia and it looks thoroughly ridiculous and utterly ugly. Granted, I'm already not a fan of big winglets.


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New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 5 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 20):
1. A spiroid is nothing but a winglet for a winglet for a winglet ad infinitum, right?

I'd imagine that at some point, you pay the price for the additional drag...you can't get something for nothing   (Standard) winglets only work because you are offsetting the additional airframe drag by reducing probably the major source of induced drag: the wingtip votex   I don't know how moebius strip looking thingys on the wing do dragwise...and that is probably one of the reasons for building them. I'd say the underwhelming response so far either means that there is more engineering work to do or that scaling up to 1:1 didn't produce the expected benefits. It's been 3 years now...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
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