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Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?  
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

I realise this might perhaps seem more appropriate in the Hobby forum, but i'd like to address this quetion to REAL pilots who have used FS98/2K.

Just how realistic is FS98? i must say that some parts of the scenery etc IS Realistic.

But how realisitc are the flight models of the aircraft?

I eman i have just been practising circuits (complete T/O and Ldg) with an Air India 747-400. The aircraft manages to take off and land from the barely 4000 feet runway at Merril C Meiggs airfield that too with over 40% fuel load! Surely a real aircraft cant do that!

Also an IC A300 that i fly regularly lands at about 110 knots! Surely this isnt true in the REAL FS?

SO how realistic is FS? Does anyone have any aircraft with REALISTIC Flight models? Perhaps a pilot could shed more light on this?


34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHeavyjet From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

This has been address ad nauseam.

It's a game...period. Nothing more.


User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1413 times:


How realistic? Well, that depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

I can only talk about the Cessnas, since I haven't ever flown a jet in real life.

If you are talking about the actual eye-hand manipulation of the controls, and flight models, then FS has a long way to go. I think that, as far as actual hand flying goes, real airplanes are easier to fly then the simlulators, because you have actual feedback on the controls, and you can just turn your head and look, rather than have to mess around with switching views all the time. Also, the "ATC communications" in FS98 and 2K are severly lacking in realism.

But, if you are looking for a good navigation trainer, or instrument procedures trainer, then MS FS is great. The NAV radios, at least in the Cessna, behave almost exactlly as they would in real life. I have the Jepp airway manual pack, and I use those instead of the ones that MS includes (they are practically useless), and I fly airways, ILS approaches, VOR approaches, NDB approaches, according to the IAPs daily on the simulator to keep myself sharp on them. (FS2K is much better for this - many more NAVAIDS and airports) I set the visability to 1 mile and rain, and I won't let myself use the autopilot - It's great for developing a good instrument scan, and developing situational awareness. Also, it really helps you learn the charts, and how to fly the procedures (i.e., Feeder routes, course reversals, holds, procedure tracks, minimums, FAFs, MAPs, DAs, MDAs, etc...)




Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineRyu2 From Taiwan, joined Aug 2002, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1342 times:

If you want something pretty realistic, as far as flight and performance characteristics are concerned, check out Aerowinx Precision Simulator. It's not a game, but rather it's a real cockpit trainer for the 747-400. Every button/switch/function is duplicated, and the performance models are spot on. Many real airline pilots use it to practice themselves.

The main drawbacks is that it's over $200 USD, and also, there is no scenery apart from the horizon and runway flights -- but the intention is to simulate the aircraft, not the scenery outside anyways.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

.. but if you have a second PC & a netcable you'll still be able to use FS2K to run the scenery part.

BTW, I'd say that from the software that have been provided over the years, I'd say I'd be able to take control over an modern airliner (say a B777) and know how to change direction, altitude, speed etc. without too many hassles. Not that I would do it, unless it was called upon (another thing that has been discussed for ages: Would a flightsimmer be able to take over a airliner if both pilots went out.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1308 times:

My son has Fly2K and it seems quite realistic. I don't know how it compares to the MS-FS, I suspect it may be better.

The neatest thing to try is cut one engine (on a twin) during take-off!

Cheers,
Pete


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6277 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1298 times:

A couple quick points.

1) FS won't kill you when you make a mistake.
2) A real light aircraft is easier to fly because all your senses are used. I can drive a street stock dragster to a 8.3 sec 1/4 mile but I cannot do so using a keyboard. I can also fly a real Skylane in an almost passable fashion but can't find the airport on FS.
3) If you think that you could handle a real 747 etc because you can land one on FS, think again. Refer to note 1.



Quit calling an airport ramp "Tarmac" and a taxiway "runway".
User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

Would a flightsimmer be able to take over a airliner if both pilots went out.

I can't really answer that question, because I've only flown airliners on the flight simulator. Maybe if I altered the question a little...

Q: Would a flightsimmer be able to take over a Cessna if the pilot went out?

A: Ain't no way.



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineConcorde1518 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 746 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1246 times:

I wasn't the PIC, but I have had the controls of a 172 before in the right seat, and although I was only keeping it straight and level, no takeoffs or landings, I though I was doing a damn good job given that I've only flown a simulator for 1 year.

User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1248 times:

I wasn't the PIC, but I have had the controls of a 172 before in the right seat, and although I was only keeping it straight and level, no takeoffs or landings, I though I was doing a damn good job given that I've only flown a simulator for 1 year.


See, that's just the thing: "No takeoffs or landings..." Anyone can fly straight and level - with or without simulator experience. I have 160-odd hours in real airplanes, innumerable hours in Microsoft Flight simulator. I'm here to tell you: They ain't the same.

However, I will still stick to my previous statement: It makes a great IAP trainer.



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5484 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1219 times:

A couple of years ago, a friend who is a 737 Cpt was visiting me at the house, and I showed him the computer w/ FS98 on it (he'd never seen it, being accustomed to big, grown-up simulators and honest-to-gosh airplanes).

By this time, I'd mastered basic flight in the 182 (takeoff from Meigs, fly pattern, land and stop, whoopee), and was fiddling around with a 737 taking off from DAL.

He took it off, flew around Dallas for a while, found DAL again and landed. First try. No force-feedback (and heck, it was a joystick, not a yoke). The only thing I had to tell him was (1) where the throttle control was on the joystick, and (2) how to apply the brakes.

Not sure what that all means. But it was fun to watch.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1199 times:


...He took it off, flew around Dallas for a while, found DAL again and landed. First try. No force-feedback (and heck, it was a joystick, not a yoke). The only thing I had to tell him was (1) where the throttle control was on the joystick, and (2) how to apply the brakes.


That's nice. But what we were actually talking about was the opposite: Someone who has no experience but Flight Simulator trying to fly a real airplane, rather than someone who has thousands of hours in real airplanes trying to fly a glorified computer game.

Look, I've been where you guys are. I was an FS expert, and I thought that I could just jump in a real airplane, fire it up, and go. Who needs a stinkin' CFI anyway? I'm telling you that it just doesn't work like that.




Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineYKA From Netherlands, joined Sep 2001, 766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

I think real pilots give themselves too much credit. In a proposed emergency situation someone with FS experience would be be far more valueble then somebody with no experience whatsoever. Knowing the basics such as flap settings, approach speeds and techniques im pretty sure someone with plenty of FS experice could land a cessna safley.

User currently offlineGE From Singapore, joined Mar 2000, 320 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1181 times:

Yeah, but what's missing in FlightSim is the "feel" for the aircraft. That v. important and can only be achieved from real flying. As for operational procedures, I think a really good flightsimmer won't have any trouble in that.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 37
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

I seriously doubt an experienced flight simmer could get a cessna airplane on the ground on a hot summer day safely. Seeing the look on their faces and such fear that you can smell it from being that low to the ground at a mushy airspeed in slow flight...its alot harder than you think. The feel of an airplane in a high drag configuration and the feel of the actual air shifting around and moving around and gusting is so much different than that game.. its nuts.

Maybe, just maybe if the person was able to get the airplane slowed down enough and it was CAT III autoland capable and they were able to get it programmed properly in time (doubtful) they might be able to get it on the ground.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1166 times:

.. and if you're flying the heavy iron you can still (hopefully) rely on ATC to tell you what to do & where to go.

Also, with the invention of online flying (complete with DP, STARS & real-life routes) it would actually add quite a bit to the FS experience, especially in therms of communicating with the tower.

Yes, the feel of the aircraft is still missing, however, we're not talking about doing the absolutely A+ descent & approach, we're talking about getting the a/c on the ground (using the basic rules: It's a good landing if you can walk away from it & It's a great landing when the a/c can be re-used.


User currently offlineWestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1149 times:

I think real pilots give themselves too much credit. ...Knowing the basics such as flap settings, approach speeds and techniques im pretty sure someone with plenty of FS experice could land a cessna safley.

YOU THINK WHAT???

Do me a favor. Go down to your local GA airport, and sign up for one of those "introductory flights." You know, the one where they give you the logbook and everything? Ask the CFI if you can try the landing. If he or she even allows you to attempt it, it should be a sufficiently humbling experience to break that "FS bubble" in your head.



Jack @ AUS
User currently offlineCovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1449 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

man, you couldn'tfind the airport in msfs? i couldn't find the CITY. if flying a real airplane is that hard, then by god...


thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineSoku39 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1797 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (12 years 8 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1120 times:

http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/feature/karl.htm

you decide.



The Ohio Player
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

To answer the question that if both pilots were cisabled for whatever, would i be able to fly the plane? the major problem would be that i dont know where the flap settings or engine levers etc are. In FS we just press F7 or F6 to set the flaps. but in real life?

When my sis took me into the cockpit of her A320 on a recent flight, the first thing that struck me was how different the REAL cockpit looked from the one in FS.

For eg the Reverse thrust was a SEPARATE lever altogether, unlike in FS.


User currently offlineTimborara From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2001, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 8 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1113 times:

It appears that no-one has mentioned the most recent addition to the FS family - FS2002. FS98 is getting on for 5 years old now - thats prehistoric in simulation terms.

The advances made in 2002 over 2000 are imense - there is proper ATC now from ground to centre and back, hell;theres even a taxiway direction thingy that tells you where to go. As with all the FS's, the flight models have been verified by cessna themselves - surly they know what the real thing feels like?

As for Indianguy-you're registered in airliners.net, yet you wouldn't know the first place to look for the thrust levers??? come now-an exageration methinks.

And western727 - i couldn't agree with you more. Been there; done that. I tried a landing on my second lesson thinking it was easy - the approach was fine, but a gust of crosswind picked us up and across the runway - scary experience. That burst my bubble for good!

Ra



User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 8 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1085 times:

Here's my 2 cents worth...

Let's change the question just for fun - could a high-time pilot (13,000+ hours) sucessfully land a FS version of the aircraft that he flies. I've tried it with the Lear 35 (3,000 hours in type) and it was UGLY -and embarrassing. I guarantee that I have NEVER crashed the real airplane, but I can't say the same for FS. As a CFI/CFII I would admit that there might be some advantages to FS for the would be pilot, BUT caution must be used because there is a great danger that the FSer will inadvertantly pick up some bad habits then in grain them through repeated practice. I would NEVER recommend a would be pilot to practice flight procedures or techniques on the FS without some type of supervision. I've seen guys who thought they had it all "figured out" have to spend hundreds of additional $$$ to break the bad habits that they had formed. All in all, I don't think that it's worth the risk.

If you guys want to see a real sim I'd suggest that you visit the closest Flight Safety or Simuflite Learning center. (Flight Safety has centers across the country.) Just walk in and introduce yourself as a would-be pilot. I'd bet lunch that you'd end up with the $10 tour of the place and maybe they'd even let you to sit in and fly one of their $25 million Level D simulators for a few minutes.

By the way, those sims are fantastic! If you want to talk realistic, these level D sims are good enough to get your type rating in them with out ever having flown the real airplane.

Bottom line is this: FS is just a game. But if you're VERY careful there could be some advantages in it for a would be pilot.


User currently offlineNotar520AC From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (12 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

The Flight Sim is just not a game, it's a simulation of flight. I started in '97, and the first time I stepped in the cockpit of a Cessna, everything came naturally to me. Same with the chopper. It helps a lot!

 Smokin cool -Notar520AC



BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
User currently offlineJetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1053 times:

This ought to be good...


User currently offlineCaptjetblast From Argentina, joined Aug 2001, 281 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (12 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1039 times:

I've been using FS from years, flown flight plans as accurate as possible, and passed al the lessons, from Cessna to B767, B747, MD-11, etc. I even downloaded all the available panles for every plane.

But believe me, nothing compares to reality!

In the past I used to visiting real cockpits (since 9.11.01 it's impossible), and even the most accurate and complete MSFS panels have nothing to with real cockpits!

And when you wish to fly-sim, you just choose the plane and airport, apply throttles and flaps. Real pilots spend some time "warming" everything on board before t.o.

Regards.




25 Wardialer : Also there are NO taxiway markings. Example would be A (ALPHA) B (BRAVO) etc.
26 Post contains images Log : Sorry, must disagree, I enjoyed 'learning to fly' with MSfs so much that i did book myself an hour on the simulator at Cranebank Heathrow on a 777 and
27 NiteRider30 : For anybody who thinks that somebody with only FS experience were to get into a Cessna and be able to land it without it being a scary experience, lis
28 OH-LZA : For FS2000 there's a great payware add-on called 767 PIC, i am 99% sure i could operate the FMC (at least partially) and set the autoland on a B757 or
29 Western727 : I'd like to amend my opinion on the subject just a bit. My flight school uses Diamond Katanas for instrument training. As some of you may know the Ka
30 Illini_152 : I dunno- I've had very little FS time, most of my flying had been in spam cans with yokes. Went over to the Citabria (a newer Champ) a year ago. The t
31 Jsf119 : if you kids want realism save your money and take lessons
32 Jetguy : Bob, you hit the nail on the head. People who truly want to learn to fly will find some way to make it happen. Spending endless hours on a computer pl
33 Uvalencia : I must say that while reading this post I was a little bit reluctant to believe that the Flight Simulator didnt reproduce so well the real stuff. See,
34 MD11Nut : I found that MS FS98 is fairly close (but not the same) to the real thing for the Cessna, from the cockpit instruments to the way it flies (except for
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