Quote: (...)Designed to help simplify and standardize air traffic control
(ATC) phraseology, as well as to comply with International
Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards, U.S. controllers will
use the term “line up and wait” in place of “position and hold”
when instructing a pilot to taxi onto a departure runway and wait
for takeoff clearance(...)
They also argued the pilots could confuse with "position and roll" or "hold position".
Me thinks anybody who would get confused would probably be you're once-in-a-year flight 76 year old sunday flier that's nearly deaf. Doubt the more proficient ones would ever get confused. Position and hold seems more than clear for me.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6284 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8669 times:
I think position and hold is more clear but I can see why they want to be the same as the ICAO with all the international flights. But someone who confused Postion and Hold to clear for takeoff should not be flying.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8644 times:
Quoting ryu2 (Reply 2): It also has the advantage of less syllables to say on the radio, which helps in busy airports like LHR, JFK, ORD...
It's one less syllable. Hardly a dealbreaker no matter how you shake it.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1): So they're basically just switching over to the ICAO english standard.
Quoting flymia (Reply 3): they want to be the same as the ICAO with all the international flights
Jetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2660 posts, RR: 37 Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8641 times:
I think position and hold sounds more professional, IMO. Line up and wait sounds like a school teacher telling her kids to line up before going outside to recess.
Moot point I guess, but I do see why they are doing it and I don't really have any beef over the change.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21460 posts, RR: 24 Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8625 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4): Quoting ryu2 (Reply 2):
It also has the advantage of less syllables to say on the radio, which helps in busy airports like LHR, JFK, ORD...
It's one less syllable. Hardly a dealbreaker no matter how you shake it.
But four one-syllable words are probably easier for many non-native English speaking pilots to understand, especially those with limited English skills. And there seem to be obvious advantages in using consistent terminology in both directions on flights between the US and the rest of the world.
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7626 posts, RR: 28 Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8606 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1): Me thinks anybody who would get confused would probably be you're once-in-a-year flight 76 year old sunday flier that's nearly deaf. Doubt the more proficient ones would ever get confused. Position and hold seems more than clear for me.
I doubt they are concerned about that demographic so much as the international pilots who routinely misunderstand ATC phraseology in the US and on the runway is not the place for that to be happening. Look up any number of incidents with Chinese and/or Japanese pilots over the last few years. When I was still doing my ATC consulting gig in Japan, the most common complaint from pilot there was about the "position and hold" instruction.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
lowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 8533 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1): Position and hold seems more than clear for me.
I prefer the "position and hold" termanology, but that might be because it is what I started out under. I have never heard of any confusion on the frequency due to either instruction. On the other hand, if it makes life a little easier for some folks where English is not thier native language, I don't really see any harm.
However, they better not even think about converting to hectopascals or milibars.
SCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5088 posts, RR: 28 Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8498 times:
Consistency is wise, but "line up and wait" is still ridiculous.
I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 8482 times:
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 8434 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6): But four one-syllable words are probably easier for many non-native English speaking pilots to understand, especially those with limited English skills. And there seem to be obvious advantages in using consistent terminology in both directions on flights between the US and the rest of the world.
Funny, I haven't had any foreign controllers cut me any slack when I don't understand them in China and India. They just repeat it faster!
slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 8421 times:
Good, standard phraseology should be used by all, otherwise, there's no point in having it.
What was the reason for those "position and hold" instructions anyway?
Quoting SCCutler (Reply 9): I will exercise my revolutionary streak by acknowledging that silly turn of phrase with "Position and hold."
I'd love to see the look on your face the first time you realise you'll just have read back a 'line up and wait' clearance without feeling odd about it!
It will happen sooner than you think!
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10): "Let me know when you're ready to write down a number."
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8402 times:
Quoting slz396 (Reply 12): What was the reason for those "position and hold" instructions anyway?
Seems sort of obvious. "after the landing Delta 737 taxi into POSITION and HOLD" No different than the British "after the landing Ryanair LINE UP and WAIT". If you're in position then you can expedite the T/O when cleared.
cobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 981 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 8392 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1): Me thinks anybody who would get confused would probably be you're once-in-a-year flight 76 year old sunday flier that's nearly deaf. Doubt the more proficient ones would ever get confused. Position and hold seems more than clear for me.
The problems arises when for example fatigued pilot with a bad day with some problems in cockpit that he must fix and is expecting to hear position and roll will probably misheard.
For example one pilot was instructed to descent to two trousand feet. He misheard two and crashed into terrain
Communicating with non english speakin controllers (italian, spanish, french) can a be a real pain in the ass.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 8216 times:
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
"Let me know when you're ready to write down a number."
The obvious response to that would be "unable"
Quoting cobra27 (Reply 14): is expecting to hear position and roll
There's no such thing as position and roll, not officially as far as I know. So if a pilot misunderstands that as position and ROLL, knowing there really is no such procedure, then I think the pilot has some serious issues.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 17):
Now if they could just convert to HpA and Celcius ......
Uhm, Celsius has been used in US aviation for ages.
Screw HpA though, "two niner niner two" sounds much more nicer than "one-zero-one-three"
DiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1294 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 8188 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 3): I think position and hold is more clear but I can see why they want to be the same as the ICAO with all the international flights. But someone who confused Postion and Hold to clear for takeoff should not be flying.
I'm of the same opinion. We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world. Just how it clears anything up is beyond me, but whatever. I'll still try to say Position and Hold, for sure.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8132 times:
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19): We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world. Just how it clears anything up is beyond me
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19): I'll still try to say Position and Hold, for sure.
I dearly hope you're not being serious.
If you are, please turn in your CFI certificate. Nobody needs people like you teaching.
DiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1294 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8120 times:
If you are, please turn in your CFI certificate. Nobody needs people like you teaching.
Sorry, but, sarcasm isn't your strong suit. I was kidding with that stuff. Do I like the change? no I don't. I don't think it helps safety at all. Initially, it will do nothing more than add confusion. Will I deal with it yes. At least we haven't gone to the conditional clearance stuff, where they can clear you to position and hold behind a plane that hasn't landed yet.
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19): We invented the airplane, but yet have to conform to the rest of the world.
As the poster you responded to said, there is a need to employ commonality with ICAO terminology. This fact may have somehow escaped you, but the rest of the world is flying airplanes too - and often to the United States.
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 19): Just how it clears anything up is beyond me, but whatever.
If you ever have a communication misunderstanding with a foreign pilot on frequency, you just might come to an understanding. As previously stated, "line up and wait" is easier for second language users of English to understand. Unless you'd like to change the lingua franca of ATC in the US, I'm for phraseology that will allow all users of the system to be clear about what is going on. Why anyone would expect, much less desire, foreigners to use phrases that cause them confusion is a bizarre concept to me.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
cobra27 From Slovenia, joined May 2001, 981 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8062 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 18): There's no such thing as position and roll, not officially as far as I know. So if a pilot misunderstands that as position and ROLL, knowing there really is no such procedure, then I think the pilot has some serious issues.
True, I haven't here it either. I think ATC communications are the probably the easiest thing to learn but hard to master
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8063 times:
The argument is somewhat silly. Come on, Position and Hold is no more difficult than Line up and wait. They're both English and any professional pilot flying shouldn't have a problem with either. Now if you want to talk about about a chance for confusion just start looking at the Arpt Ops Info for every foreign airport you may fly to and you'll find subtle differences EVERYWHERE that create an extra workload for any pilot. Now let's throw in those tricky little transition levels/altitudes that change from country to country and most times daily! While we in the US have kept the standard fl180(500mb) since for ever. Come on rest of the world make it standard!! Geez, UK TA is 6000 while FR next door is 4000! The TL change daily. Now I'll take position and hold and 180 any day!
25 Aaron747: This is true but you've been on the job with a headset more than long enough to know that not all countries and operators within them have always tak
26 WESTERN737800: I was brought up with position and hold. I like it and I'm used to it. However, I can see benifit to line up and wait. I was in the right seat with a
27 lowrider: That would be a bit of standardization I would buy into. Even if it is not the whole world, could we at least get each continent standardized?
28 DiamondFlyer: Perhaps it would be easier to actually make sure people can speak English than it is to continually change the way the system works. Every day I hear
29 ThePinnacleKid: And yet.. to all those that want to see conformity in the US to use ICAO phraseology.. as a pilot that operates all over the US and to select other no
30 Aaron747: Right there with you...unfortunately ICAO, like a lot of other international organizations, doesn't have a whole lot of enforcement authority. Everyo
31 unattendedbag: I would find it disturbing if a controller gave a command like "position and hold" or "line up and wait" to a pilot that had a limited grasp of the En
32 etherealsky: You do realize the irony in your post, right? A note about "line up and wait" - I agree that it might sound a bit childish at first, but realize that
33 Mir: I don't know - maybe it's because I've been doing it for so long, but I can rattle off "position and hold" faster than I can "line up and wait". The
34 RomeoMike: We've been doing it in Canada for a couple years now (I think? Time flies.) At first I was of the same opinion as many of you -- that it sounded silly
35 P3Orion: This is what is known as a conditional clearance and is not (THANKFULLY) authorized by the FAA. That is a disaster waiting to happen.
36 SCCutler: Having heard the dreaded "...advise ready to copy a phone number..." issued - to others - I have no desire to receive the same directive. My tongue w
37 Alias1024: I'm really glad to see this change. I've been of the opinion that the FAA needed to change this since seeing a similar incident where a "hold short" i
38 Maverick623: As was mine. Ummm.... this is the internet. I really wasn't sure if you were serious or not (plus I spend wayyy to much time in non-av )
39 nbgskygod: I would have to agree with you there. That type of conditional clearance will cause more problems than it will ever help, especially at GA airports w
40 Maverick623: I disagree, simply because non-foreign GA pilots often do not just stay at their home airport.
41 bri2k1: The sickness factor for me is not related to hearing the other languages, it's my own lack of situational awareness that comes out of them. When ever
42 slz396: I know that my friend; the question obviously was why the US had a different phraseology on this particular thing in the first place, whereas all oth
43 slz396: This is the main reason why ICAO has 'line up and wait', rather than 'taxi into position and hold'. 'hold position' simply is too similar to 'positio
44 atpcliff: Hi! And, overseas, they often say "Taxi to Holding Position, Runway XX" or "Taxi to Holding Point, Runway XX". So, the Lineup and Wait is quit differe
45 CosmicCruiser: That was the point, read on I've never noticed it was ever said quickly for any reason. That was the point of my previous post. The numerous little d
46 bri2k1: Two serious questions about LUAW: One, what is a pilot supposed to read back? "Lining up and waiting?" How about just "Roger?" That seems detrimental
47 EGTESkyGod: Yeah? Well we invented the language so keep up...!!! Hehehe. EXACTLY the point I was going to make. I cannot see any standard RT that could be confus
48 xero9: "Lining up, ABC" is all you need to say.
49 Glom: How is this any different from the regional dialect? As has been commented, there have been cases of pilots confusing "hold short" and "position and
50 bri2k1: Every assertion in your post is based on personal assumptions. Only time will tell.
51 Mir: "Line up and wait", "Lining up", or some variation of that. No big deal. Same way as they deal with pilots who get confused about position and hold i
52 bri2k1: I've talked to two controllers at a Class D airport, an airport ops supervisor, and an ATC QA manager. Half of them are pilots, but none actively. Th
53 FredT: Moving the TA from 4000 to 18000 means that each and every aircraft plodding along between those two altitudes will now have to continually adjust th
54 vio: Hmmm... I don't think they should change it. Normally at YYC the Tower controllers would always tell me "Taxi to possition and hold... " the maybe a b
55 DiamondFlyer: Part of it is airspace, which thankfully allows for very nice general aviation activities. Part of it deals with the vast differences in terrain we e
56 Mir: Sure, use common sense. If the pilot doesn't understand "line up and wait", then explain it to them (shouldn't be hard - "it's the new version of pos
57 DashTrash: "Line up and wait" is no different than the US trying to copy everything else Europe has done. I don't see any reason why it will be a disaster, but I
58 saab2000: Why is this a pain in the ass? How hard is it really to change a few words? I flew in Europe and now fly in the US. Due to standard ATC phraseology a
59 Alias1024: I think it depends on where you are. At a Class D where a majority of the traffic is most likely GA bug smashers, the yes there will be some issues.
60 B727LVR: I'm not a pilot, but as a mechanic having to Taxi an aircraft for various reasons, I think there is more of an issue with pilots (both foreign and na
61 Starlionblue: It's an ICAO standard, not a European standard. The US is a member of ICAO.
62 DashTrash: My comment was meant as a bit of sarcasm. Same reason you write last year when you date things for the first couple of weeks in a new year. We've bee
63 Starlionblue: Consistency is more important than being right? BTW when are you guys changing over to the metric system? Ah. I didn't get it since you didn't use a
64 Glom: How? It isn't a personal assumption that "line up and wait" is ICAO standard phraseology? How is it personal assumption that no other standard instru
65 DashTrash: About the time you guys change to the SAE system...
66 bri2k1: I consider the following to be opinion: In all seriousness, it won't be a problem for the professional pilots who fly one or more segments several da
67 FredT: Standing by for an explanation as to why GA traffic can't fly VFR on levels... (Hint: Commonly done.) As for changing the TA in the US, you'd need to
68 Glom: Since in US airspace, transition altitude coincides with the floor of class A airspace, it would be very much an alien concept over there to be follo
69 DiamondFlyer: So, you want us to change our airspace again, when we already did once in order to attempt to conform to the ICAO standards? Honestly, I don't think
70 Glom: When we changed our entire en route services a couple of years ago, I don't recall the sky falling. Maybe change isn't that difficult after all.
71 spacecadet: I understand why they're doing it, but grammatically "line up and wait" sounds oddly ambiguous to me. "Line up", at least in the US, means "get behind
72 lowrider: Unless you have a uniform TA throughout a country, you still have this risk. If one region has a TA of 6000, and an adjacent has a TA of 15000, you w
73 B6A322: I never saw the point in that anyway. We were all just going to run out onto the playground anyway.... I want to see how many pilots flying around wi
74 mandala499: I gotta love how people get worked up about this! You line up on the runway and wait for further clearance... or You get into a position to enable fo
75 aircellist: Well, you could learn a sentence or two in French or Spanish ATC terminology English is one of the official languages of aviation. So, you invented t
76 Starlionblue: Very true, at least in general as you say. There's an old joke: "What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual. What about someone who
77 CosmicCruiser: I wouldn't really say that's the only reason. You must consider that for those living in Europe you have different countries/ languages as close to y
78 Starlionblue: True for Americans, but Brits display the same characteristic, and "The Continent" is right next door. I don't get it.
79 JohnJ: I haven't had my scanner on since September 30 and haven't kept up with this issue, so I was surprised when I tuned in KBDL ATIS this afternoon and he
80 26point2: They are all doing it? Today I was in KLUK and KSJC. Both ATII had same.
81 slz396: Yes, because 'position and hold' would now constitute an invalid clearance, with all the nasty consequences for the one issuing it as well as the one
82 NBGSkyGod: The "line up and wait phraseology is now in effect" line on the ATIS is a result of the FAA determining that the one guy who didn't get the memo may c
83 Alias1024: Yes. Even airports that do not use line up and wait procedures have it on the recording. "Line up and wait phraseology now in effect at other airport
84 sccutler: I flew last Saturday, must have heard the controller say, "Position and ho... errr, Line up and wait, runway one five..."at least three times. But it
85 dinker225: The last thing we want to do is have a pilot call the tower. Yes if it is a bad enough infraction, we have to. But simply saying "position and hold"
86 sccutler: Well, I got my very first "Line up and wait" instruction last Wednesday, and I managed to read it back and comply without: 1. Losing my personal pride
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