2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 8498 times:
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I'm here at OSH right now - no performance claims are on display, and company reps are mum on numbers.
NetJets21 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8435 times:
That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8139 times:
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Ok, I was finally able to get a complete, unobstructed shot into the DB:
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16935 posts, RR: 57 Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8056 times:
Quoting NetJets21 (Reply 3): That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!
The numbers I've heard are 10-15% fuel burn improvement/range/thrust required. So not insignificant. Combined with the newer engines, this could trigger a 737 upgrade.
oly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6225 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7931 times:
Quoting faro (Reply 6): Seems a hell of a lot for an aerodynamic tweak to me...
It might depend on what's being compared with what. It seems that the spiroids are additional wingspan, roughly doubled for the top and bottom horizontal elements which will give more lift compared to the baseline wing. At cruise the additional lift would mean flying at a marginally lower incidence at the same speed (assuming generated lift is rather more than the weight of the devices), potentially reducing the drag a bit, and given the drag increment due to the spiroid is lower than the drag reduction due their implementation.
the span of the spiroid part is about 1/7 to 1/8 of the span of the wing, and this will be about the increase in wing area - 15% say - given the bottom and top horizontal areas of the spiroid.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7869 times:
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Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8): How heavy are they? I'm assuming they're at least as twice as heavy as regular winglets.
About 250 lbs each. But in the interest of rapid prototyping and cost, they're machined out of blocks of aluminum. Production versions will carbon fiber composite.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7837 times:
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Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10): I'm assuming though once they're certified and they use the composite ones they may allow for an MGTOW increase.
I would assume that certified composite versions would indeed be much lighter.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5962 posts, RR: 4 Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7769 times:
Max Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 3326 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7670 times:
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.
Falcons are some of the best looking small jets around and that thing on the end of the wing really detracts from its elegance.
It looks like it's been in an accident..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16935 posts, RR: 57 Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7664 times:
As it was explained to me, what they basically do is spread out the vortex so it's not really a vortex anymore. The vortex forms around the wingtip. Even if you have a winglet, you still have a wingtip. With a spiroid wingtip, you actually don't have a wingtip.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7651 times:
Quoting Max Q (Reply 13): I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.
Not a huge fan of it either.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14): As it was explained to me, what they basically do is spread out the vortex so it's not really a vortex anymore. The vortex forms around the wingtip. Even if you have a winglet, you still have a wingtip. With a spiroid wingtip, you actually don't have a wingtip.
Makes sense. However, my guess is that what little is left of the vortex will be produced from the corners of the spiroid mostly. To completely eliminate vortices I'd imagine it would have to be almost perfectly round.
bohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2430 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7637 times:
Quoting Max Q (Reply 13): I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.
While there might be aerodynamic improvements, it isn't incredibly ugly, it's fugly.
The vortex actually comes off the trailing edge as a vortex sheet...it rolls up to form the trailing vortex about a semi-span back from the trailing edge.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15): To completely eliminate vortices I'd imagine it would have to be almost perfectly round.
You can't eliminate the vortex. You can spread it out so that it's impact on the near flow field is less (less induced drag) but total vorticity is pretty much pinned down by Cl.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6916 times:
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Here's another view, in case anyone is interested:
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2262 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6900 times:
As the old saying goes, can't have you cake and ieat it too. If the bean counters come across something that can save 10%+ there will be definite interest.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
Lighter, with less parasite drag added, more of a wingtip diffuser than the snake-biting-its-tail design depicted on the falcon, but not flight tested yet.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2262 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6806 times:
I'm no aeronautical engineer, but it seems to me that other areas of the wing need some attention as well. True, at cruise, this scenario isn't as prominent, but I think this photo gets my point across.
oly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6225 posts, RR: 11 Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 6789 times:
Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 23): True, at cruise, this scenario isn't as prominent
Every contrail is the exhaust from the engines being drawn around the tip vortices. Sure, close to the aircraft the exhausts are distinct, but further downstream, it's the path of the tip vortices you're seeing. If the atmospheric conditions are right the plane itself can generate condensation, and again this shows around the tip vortices that can be sustained for many miles.
25 Rheinbote: I seem to recall seeing a G-II with spiroids undergoing flight test in an article in AvLeak in the late 1980s. What happened in the 20 years that hav
27 oly720man: The original flights were in the late 1990s http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/08/spiroid-winglet.html In the meantime I'd imagine they've been
28 A342: I assume PC12Fan is referring to the vortices/contrails originating from the flap edges in the photo he posted.
29 tdscanuck: That looks useless to me. The vortex doesn't spring fully formed from the tip...it comes off the whole trailing edge as a vortex sheet that rolls up
30 oly720man: It makes you wonder what's actually going on, from these results http://www.minix.fr/english/determinating_result.php unless it's a case of apples 'n
31 PC12Fan: Correct, I should have been more specific.
32 tdscanuck: I don't get that one...the claims are substantial, large enough that I immediately smell a rat because, if it was as good as claimed it should be eve
33 oly720man: An operational issue is that it's a tube and they can collect water and freeze, stopping it working... or you need a heater. One claim is 8% reductio
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