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Spiroid Winglet On Display On A Falcon 50 At Osh  
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 11089 times:

Seen here on a Falcon 50. Looks like the spiroid design we've already seen but from this angle it's hard to know if it's exactly the same or not.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/Fleetwing1627/01.jpg

It'd be nice if someone at Oshkosh this year could tell us if there's a sign with any performance claims on it nearby.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11070 times:

And it is N789JC, from a photo here (13th down)

http://airpigz.com/blog/2010/7/25/os...its-all-about-to-begin-17-pix.html



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10943 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

I'm here at OSH right now - no performance claims are on display, and company reps are mum on numbers.


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User currently offlineNetJets21 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 10880 times:

That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 10585 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Ok, I was finally able to get a complete, unobstructed shot into the DB:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jason McDowell




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User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10502 times:

Quoting NetJets21 (Reply 3):
That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!

The numbers I've heard are 10-15% fuel burn improvement/range/thrust required. So not insignificant. Combined with the newer engines, this could trigger a 737 upgrade.


User currently offlinefaro From Egypt, joined Aug 2007, 1545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10487 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Quoting NetJets21 (Reply 3):
That looks way cool. I wonder how big a performance increase they will see with them!

The numbers I've heard are 10-15% fuel burn improvement/range/thrust required.

Is that 10-15% the maximum possible or an average estimate? Seems a hell of a lot for an aerodynamic tweak to me...

Faro



The chalice not my son
User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 10377 times:

Quoting faro (Reply 6):
Seems a hell of a lot for an aerodynamic tweak to me...

It might depend on what's being compared with what. It seems that the spiroids are additional wingspan, roughly doubled for the top and bottom horizontal elements which will give more lift compared to the baseline wing. At cruise the additional lift would mean flying at a marginally lower incidence at the same speed (assuming generated lift is rather more than the weight of the devices), potentially reducing the drag a bit, and given the drag increment due to the spiroid is lower than the drag reduction due their implementation.

Very roughly, on this photo


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jason McDowell



the span of the spiroid part is about 1/7 to 1/8 of the span of the wing, and this will be about the increase in wing area - 15% say - given the bottom and top horizontal areas of the spiroid.



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

How heavy are they? I'm assuming they're at least as twice as heavy as regular winglets.

User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 10314 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 8):
How heavy are they? I'm assuming they're at least as twice as heavy as regular winglets.

About 250 lbs each. But in the interest of rapid prototyping and cost, they're machined out of blocks of aluminum. Production versions will carbon fiber composite.



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User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10295 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):

About 250 lbs each.

Damn. That's 3 pax worth, or 4 if they're skinny, or a lot of fuel.

I'm assuming though once they're certified and they use the composite ones they may allow for an MGTOW increase.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10282 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
I'm assuming though once they're certified and they use the composite ones they may allow for an MGTOW increase.

I would assume that certified composite versions would indeed be much lighter.



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User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6385 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 10214 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
.

I would assume that certified composite versions would indeed be much lighter.

But they sure do look cool as a single piece of billeted aluminum   



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4521 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10115 times:

I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.



Falcons are some of the best looking small jets around and that thing on the end of the wing really detracts from its elegance.



It looks like it's been in an accident..



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19701 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 10109 times:

As it was explained to me, what they basically do is spread out the vortex so it's not really a vortex anymore. The vortex forms around the wingtip. Even if you have a winglet, you still have a wingtip. With a spiroid wingtip, you actually don't have a wingtip.

User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 10096 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.

Not a huge fan of it either.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
As it was explained to me, what they basically do is spread out the vortex so it's not really a vortex anymore. The vortex forms around the wingtip. Even if you have a winglet, you still have a wingtip. With a spiroid wingtip, you actually don't have a wingtip.

Makes sense. However, my guess is that what little is left of the vortex will be produced from the corners of the spiroid mostly. To completely eliminate vortices I'd imagine it would have to be almost perfectly round.


User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 10082 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.

While there might be aerodynamic improvements, it isn't incredibly ugly, it's fugly.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9966 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
The vortex forms around the wingtip

The vortex actually comes off the trailing edge as a vortex sheet...it rolls up to form the trailing vortex about a semi-span back from the trailing edge.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
To completely eliminate vortices I'd imagine it would have to be almost perfectly round.

You can't eliminate the vortex. You can spread it out so that it's impact on the near flow field is less (less induced drag) but total vorticity is pretty much pinned down by Cl.

Tom.


User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9415 times:

The flight test hours are now building up it would seem

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N789JC



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9361 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Here's another view, in case anyone is interested:


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jason McDowell




Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineviv From Ireland, joined May 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 9357 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 13):
I'm Sorry but thats incredibly ugly.

Aircraft are not designed with prettiness as a priority. Form follows function.



Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 9345 times:

Quoting viv (Reply 20):

  
As the old saying goes, can't have you cake and ieat it too. If the bean counters come across something that can save 10%+ there will be definite interest.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineWingscrubber From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 848 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9287 times:

This looks much more promising to me:
http://www.gizmag.com/minix-wing-tip...ortex-aircraft-aerodynamics/15526/


Lighter, with less parasite drag added, more of a wingtip diffuser than the snake-biting-its-tail design depicted on the falcon, but not flight tested yet.



Resident TechOps Troll
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 9251 times:

I'm no aeronautical engineer, but it seems to me that other areas of the wing need some attention as well. True, at cruise, this scenario isn't as prominent, but I think this photo gets my point across.


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Photo © Benjamin Freer




Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently onlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6729 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9234 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 23):
True, at cruise, this scenario isn't as prominent

Every contrail is the exhaust from the engines being drawn around the tip vortices. Sure, close to the aircraft the exhausts are distinct, but further downstream, it's the path of the tip vortices you're seeing. If the atmospheric conditions are right the plane itself can generate condensation, and again this shows around the tip vortices that can be sustained for many miles.


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Photo © Josef P. Willems


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Photo © Jeffwell


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeffwell


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier Guerrero - AirTeamImages




wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
25 Rheinbote : I seem to recall seeing a G-II with spiroids undergoing flight test in an article in AvLeak in the late 1980s. What happened in the 20 years that hav
26 AKviator : Too ugly. Don't like.
27 Post contains links oly720man : The original flights were in the late 1990s http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/08/spiroid-winglet.html In the meantime I'd imagine they've been
28 A342 : I assume PC12Fan is referring to the vortices/contrails originating from the flap edges in the photo he posted.
29 tdscanuck : That looks useless to me. The vortex doesn't spring fully formed from the tip...it comes off the whole trailing edge as a vortex sheet that rolls up
30 Post contains links oly720man : It makes you wonder what's actually going on, from these results http://www.minix.fr/english/determinating_result.php unless it's a case of apples 'n
31 PC12Fan : Correct, I should have been more specific.
32 tdscanuck : I don't get that one...the claims are substantial, large enough that I immediately smell a rat because, if it was as good as claimed it should be eve
33 Post contains links oly720man : An operational issue is that it's a tube and they can collect water and freeze, stopping it working... or you need a heater. One claim is 8% reductio
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