suseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 625 posts, RR: 1 Posted (2 years 9 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2594 times:
I have a PPL and based at PDK in Atlanta, GA. I am debating a trip to California to visit a friend in SBP and I was thinking I would visit my brother up at PAO. But I figured if I rent a plane and fly from SBP to PAO it would be nice to see some "air sight-seeing."
So my question is this: how likely will I be able to do something like this route under a VFR flight following situation from SFO/OAK-area ATC as some of it definitely cannot maintain VFR.
As a PPL, I know the rules about 1000 ft above congested areas, and I know all the other VFR rules and that this would have to be approved via ATC - which I am not timid talking to. Altitude doesn't matter much to me either and would be happy with anything that is "assigned."
Sean1234 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 411 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2444 times:
I haven't been flying for several years now. But I doubt SFO will ever give you a clearance to fly up the middle of the bay like that. That highway that runs up the peninsula next to PAO, SQL, and SFO is 101. The transition through the Bravo core area is typically done along highway 101.
26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 666 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2425 times:
I used to fly this route all the time. Always worked for me.
Beware the stretch off the departure end of SFO 28s. ATC gets antsy. This is where the UAL 777 nearly met the Cessna midair a few months back. You can actually avoid B off shore but that puts you beyond gliding distance to the beach I believe.
Be quick on the radio, quick to follow vectors, and know the reference landmarks. Might help to take along a local CFI then YOU can relax and enjoy the trip yourself. Much better that way. Bring a camera too.
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5444 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2408 times:
Also, make sure the plane you rent has DME. Even with flight following, they most likely won't have the time to make sure you keep clear of class B airspace. And to ease radio congestion, they'll head you over to OAK, and let OAK tower handle you.
Also, there are tour operators running Otters out the area of the north peirs. They do almost this same route.
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suseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 625 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 6 days ago) and read 2379 times:
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2): I used to fly this route all the time. Always worked for me.
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2): Be quick on the radio, quick to follow vectors, and know the reference landmarks.
Thank you. Speed on the radio is no biggie. Deal with ATL all the time. I understand the complexities of flying in a major B-airspace. And I went to school in LA, but spent a lot of time up in San Fran so my internal map of the area with landmarks is pretty good.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8747 posts, RR: 52 Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2323 times:
SFO is complicated airspace. You will be pretty consumed dealing with the Bravo airspace and figuring out the different navigation points on the boarders of its space if you are not familiar with them. I have had a bit of trouble finding landmarks since the hills can obscure things. However the view is quite amazing if you are lucky enough to find a sunny day.
Renting out of Napa CA or another airport in the east bay will keep you in VFR (both out of Bravo Space and clear of the notorious SFO fog) conditions and then you can venture towards the city as you desire.
[Edited 2010-08-22 12:31:25]
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timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2121 times:
Quoting Sean1234 (Reply 1): But I doubt SFO will ever give you a clearance to fly up the middle of the bay like that.
I think VFR aircraft from the north bound for San Carlos or Palo Alto are ordinarily directed over OAK and from there to the San Mateo bridge high-span. At or below 1100 at the high-span, maybe?
TroutPilot From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 25 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2096 times:
There is something in the Bay Area known as the "Bay Tour". Request it from ATC, they will know what you were talking about. In my case, I took off from PAO, was handed off to San Carlos tower, then handed off to SFO tower, given permission to enter Class B and told to transition from south to north (forget what altitude), exit class B, then fly directly over downtown SF, Golden Gate bridge, Marin, all the way up to Napa airport. All VFR. I took my mom and her best friend out to lunch on the Napa river and then flew us all home the same way. To this day, the nicest flight I've ever done.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2030 times:
Quoting TroutPilot (Reply 7): There is something in the Bay Area known as the "Bay Tour". Request it from ATC, they will know what you were talking about. In my case, I took off from PAO, was handed off to San Carlos tower, then handed off to SFO tower, given permission to enter Class B and told to transition from south to north (forget what altitude), exit class B, then fly directly over downtown SF, Golden Gate bridge, Marin, all the way up to Napa airport. All VFR. I took my mom and her best friend out to lunch on the Napa river and then flew us all home the same way. To this day, the nicest flight I've ever done.
On my first Re-Enlistment into the Navy I did my oath in the back of a C-130 on the cargo ramp with the ramp and door open while pilots did the "bay tour" That was 12 years ago.
Iirc we took off out of Moffett flew up the penisnsula on the ocean side over the Golden Gate then over to Alcatraz then south over the Bay Bridge and down the center of the bay back to Moffett.
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1989 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 6): I think VFR aircraft from the north bound for San Carlos or Palo Alto are ordinarily directed over OAK and from there to the San Mateo bridge high-span. At or below 1100 at the high-span, maybe?
I probably misheard-- going via the high-span would take them thru the Class B surface area. The instruction is probably to pass over OAK then via the "mid-span" of the San Mateo bridge-- which is no doubt intended to keep them clear of the Class B.
suseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 625 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
Quoting atct (Reply 9): Why not? VFR is weather minima's, has nothing to do with airspace.
When I am dealing with ATL ATC and doing flight following they will typically end with "...and maintain VFR" - which my understanding is stay out of clouds, maintain visual separation, comply with all visibility rules, AND stay out of B unless specifically requested and given clearance and/or directed into.
Quoting atct (Reply 9): I personally would stay outta the Bravo by SFO and OAK and stay on the pacific side of the ridge.
I know I could do that, and if I have to I will, but just wondering if there was approval at certain altitudes through the bay.
Quoting timz (Reply 10): I probably misheard-- going via the high-span would take them thru the Class B surface area. The instruction is probably to pass over OAK then via the "mid-span" of the San Mateo bridge-- which is no doubt intended to keep them clear of the Class B.
I am not sure I know what "mid-span" and "high-span" means to be honest. I get the San Mateo Bridge as a VFR waypoint - which is why I routed through it on my map. But could you explain what mid-span and high-span are in reference to? Because it seems like if you do "mid-span" San Mateo Bridge you will still go through B.
Quoting TroutPilot (Reply 7): There is something in the Bay Area known as the "Bay Tour". Request it from ATC, they will know what you were talking about. In my case, I took off from PAO, was handed off to San Carlos tower, then handed off to SFO tower, given permission to enter Class B and told to transition from south to north (forget what altitude), exit class B, then fly directly over downtown SF, Golden Gate bridge, Marin, all the way up to Napa airport. All VFR. I took my mom and her best friend out to lunch on the Napa river and then flew us all home the same way. To this day, the nicest flight I've ever done.
That's essentially what I was trying to do. Glad to know in local lingo that is called the "Bay Tour." Thank you!
SCCutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5092 posts, RR: 28 Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1913 times:
I did all manner of tooling around out there, basing at Petaluma - Norcal Approach were top-notch, helpful and friendly.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6468 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1866 times:
Quoting suseJ772 (Reply 11): could you explain what mid-span and high-span are in reference to?
Yeah, I doubt there is actually a point on the bridge that's visibly "mid-span". Looking at the birds-eye views at http://maps.bing.com you see how that causeway section east of the high-span is miles long, and at some point along there you're clear of the Class B-- but dunno how you tell visually.
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