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Fuel Indicator On Mel?  
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Posted (12 years 8 months 7 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

I've been thinking about the Gimli Glider lately, and I was wondering whether the MEL has been changed after the incident. Is the fuel indicator on the MEL now (especially on the 767), and if no, under which conditions MUST it be operative?

SailorOrion

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31660 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Not sure about the B767.
But on the B737, the Fuel quantity indicator,Any ONE can be despatched under MEL.
regds
HAWK.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

MELs differ depending on the aircraft model and its operator, but usually you can have one or more fuel indicators inop as long as the amount of fuel in each tank is verified before departure via other means- (dripless sticks) and the fuel flow indicators are working properly.

User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 37
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Having a fuel indicator is a basic instrument that is necessary for all types of aircraft... it is part of the minimum equipment list even for basic VFR operations.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offline242 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Having a fuel indicator is a basic instrument that is necessary for all types of aircraft... it is part of the minimum equipment list even for basic VFR operations.

I guess I'd better start filling out that NASA form.......

I just put a 727 fuel qty gauge on MEL last week.



User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3697 posts, RR: 34
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 2274 times:
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242,

When I get to work tonight I'll e-mail Airbus to get them to amend the A320 & A340 MMEL's and Boeing to amend the 747 MMEL's and remove the entries for inop fuel gauge's.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 2268 times:

The most current version of the 767 Master MEL (MMEL) can be found at:

http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/Final/transport/B767R27/

The specific item will be in Chapter 28..

Changes to the MMEL drive changes to an individual airline's internal MEL. Some MMEL changes can apply (in philosophy, as well as a technical basis) to other aircraft, and those aircraft MMELs also get changed.

As far as I'm aware, there were no significant changes made after Gimli in the ability to defer a fuel quantity indicator, as long as certain conditions or "privisos" are met.

For example, if a WING tang fuel quantity indicator is inop, a common stipulation is that the airline assure the actual quantity of fuel in the tank by either "dripsticking" the tank, -or- emptying the tank, and then refilling it with a known quantity (as per the truck's meter). Irrective of which ever method chosen, the MEL probably requires that the CENTER tank quantity indicator be operative, and likewise for the engine fuel flow indicators.

The key factor in the Gimli incident, if memory serves, was that while dripsticking, there was a human error made in converting dripstick measurements into pounds and kilograms of fuel. The MEL deferral process itself was (and continues to be) quite sound and rational, if properly complied with...


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 2257 times:

OPNLguy, you're right about the Gimli incident. However, I know that an aircraft flying on Polar 1,2,3,4 needs a running fuel indicator and fuel temp indicator. Dripping is NOT allowed on those routes.

SailorOrion


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 2254 times:

OK...

Your original question didn't mention specialized ops like polar, or extended range (ER) ops, so I just thought your were asking in general terms.

Certainly, some specialized ops have more stringent requirements...


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months ago) and read 2251 times:

Hey.. I'm not an idiot, I know what I'm talking about... thus, i refer you to:

FAR Part 91.205, subparts (b), (c), and (d)... each section builds on the other requiring more equipment.

Specifically, (b)(9) which reads: "Fuel guage indicating the quantify of fuel in each tank."


There must be some exceptions though apparently to part 121 ops that I was not aware of. If not, better get scribbling on that NASA form.  Smile



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months ago) and read 2246 times:

>>>Hey.. I'm not an idiot, I know what I'm talking about... thus, i refer you to: FAR Part 91.205, subparts (b), (c), and (d)...

One of the great (or not great) things you'll eventually come to learn about the FARs is that they are not necessarily "one-size-fits-all" with respect to applicability. If you'll scroll down a little further in Part 91, you'll notice 91.213:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr91_00.html

As you can see, this FAR allows operation with some aircraft components inop, provided certain situations exist, and/or certain provisos are complied with. If an aircraft only had a single system for measuring fuel quantity, and/or there was no MMEL for that aircraft, yeah, your statement could be correct. If the aircraft had was equipped with a means for an alternative method of compliance to the FARs, and the specfic item was addressed in the aircraft's MEL, then your statement then becomes a little too generic and generalized, and thus ignoring the specifics of the situation.







User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4189 posts, RR: 37
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months ago) and read 2242 times:

forgot about the MMEL... i appreciate the clarification.


Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

You can put a fuel guage on an MEL....PROVIDED that the SP (specail procedure) is accomplished which usually means sticking the tanks before and after the flight.

The SP is just another way of verifying the quantity of fuel.

You guys are acting like guel guages are accurate.

JET


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

OPNLguy, thanks for the link to the MMEL, I was looking for it.

I was mainly interested in the difference between the MMELs for different types and mission types (ETOPS, polar and stuff)

Thanks for all the info  Big thumbs up

SailorOrion


User currently offlineIceair204 From Iceland, joined Nov 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2188 times:

It is not that simple to ask if the MEL was changed after the incident. The thing is that Boeing issues a MMEL ( Master MEL ) for the 767 and all other aircraft they produce and each and every operator has to build and maintain their own MEL according to regulations and it can "not" be less than the manufactures Master Minimum Equipment List.

ICEAIR204


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

The terminology used in this thread is a little misleading. If a particular system is NOT mentioned in an MEL that means that the system can not be inoperative. The term "adding" it to the MEL sort of implies that you want to make mention of the system and therefore allow for dispatch with the system inoperative.

One thing nobody has referred to is FAR 25 that requires "A fuel quantity indicator for each fuel tank".

That is why they are built with a fuel quantity indicator. As to whether it can be defferred or not, is a function of the MEL.


User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

The crew of the Gimli Glider made a terrible decision (illegal) to accept and fly an aircraft with more than one main fuel quantity system inoperative.

The generic MEL for any airliner is, 1 main fuel quantity sys. inop - "go". 2 (or more) main fuel quantity indication systems inop - "grounded".

A terrible lapse in judgement in my opinion.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineJet-a gasguy From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 266 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2176 times:

Aren't ETOPS flights different? I was always under the impression that if one of the cockpit indictors was INOP on an ETOPS flight then the flight wouldn't go.(at least not with passengers on board-ferry only) At least thats been my experience.

Jet-A gasguy



Find a job you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.
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