Peterba69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 70 posts, RR: 0 Posted (12 years 1 month 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1086 times:
Hello, I'm new here, and love the forum. I know that cowlings and fairings are composite, but what about horiz. and vert. fins ? I get a mag. called "Advanced Composites" that had a great art. re.: JSF horiz. stab's being all carbon/matrix, but they still attach to the A/C with Alum. fittings built in.
Peterba69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 993 times:
Interesting. After three days here, noone touched this one. I was basically referring to Airbus, 'cause I've seen enough Boeing production line pic's to know that the V&H fins are alloy. The rudders, elevators, flaps, ailerons and spoilers are painted before ass'y. Anybody know if Airbus is the same? I would assume that they are.
Ikarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2 Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 987 times:
As far as I know, the horizontal and vertical fins of all Airbuses since the 320 are composites. As well as some of the flaps, the spoilers, ailerons and other control surfaces. Same would go for the 777.
If you are a composites fan, you must love the Raytheon Premier 1 business jet, eh?
Peterba69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 983 times:
Thx for the response. I was an A&P student back in '90, finished in '91 right as Eastern, Pan Am, & several others folded (great timing). Composite class was probably the most interesting, because it was about the only modern tech. they taught with no turbines to work on that ran, and hardly any pistons either (S#%^^a A*ad%+y was the school in OAK). We got a tour through UAL's mx. facility in SFO. Way cool. Engine shop and test cell, composite shop, sheetmetal, avionics, and about twenty(?) A/C in various states of insp./repair.
Yes, the Premier is very nice. Also went in Alaska's mx.& watched a guy doing repair on a nose cone.
FDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 979 times:
I must have overlooked your post, sorry.
Actually the A300-600 (and A310-300) vertical stabilizer is entirely composite in addition to the aforementioned A320+ series of a/c. The A310-200 are of made with conventional aluminum.
I was surprised to learn that even where the vertical stab mates with the empennage (where the 6 bolts go) is composite (on the vert stab side). This appeared to me (from viewing the NTSB web site) as if several of these composite mounts failed. This is just my opinion but see for yourself.
I would at this point think Airbus is concentrating a vast amount of their engineering resources to quickly resolve this problem.
Peterba69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 70 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 974 times:
I hadn't looked at NTSB's site before. Those comp. fittings look terribly torn up, for lack of a better term. It looks almost like fretting corrosion, although we know that's not the case, but they are severely delaminated, and the bolt holes look "worn", although I'll be dipped to find out what kind of movement could cause the wear (see the blackish look to the holes).
BWIrwy4 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 940 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (12 years 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 905 times:
I'm very surprised that Airbus uses composites for the control surfaces. As far as I know, this is the first plane crash attributable to composite failure (preliminary I know, but until the NTSB report comes out, I have to go based on what I see, and I see some very torn up fittings) but I follow sailing very closely as well as aviation. A bunch of racing boats have switched to carbon fiber masts. They're light, but they have a tendency to break at inopportune times. Also, two America's Cup class boats, with carbon hulls, have broken in half and sank. I don't know, but it seems that Airbus is playing with fire with this relatively new technology.
BlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1893 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (12 years 2 weeks ago) and read 878 times:
I also sailing and follow sailing very closely, and some of this is similar to what happened to the old AmericaOne American's Cup boats.
They were bought by the Oracle team and training in NZ a few weeks ago, the keel came off for the second time. Dunno if the hulls of the AmerciaOne (USA 51 was it???) were complete composite, or what, but the seperation of the keel is somewhat mirrored by the tail seperation of the AA plane.
In any event, my neighbor owns a Wiley Cat 30 with an unstayed carbon fiber stick, and to see that thing bend at various points of sail is pretty amazing.
The weight savings are tremendous, but i do hope Airbus and Boeing alike are looking into possible wear and tear problems in composites.
Minuteman From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 271 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (12 years 2 weeks ago) and read 875 times:
Wood is a composite material. It is essentially fibers in a binding matrix that has anisotropic properties.
Fiberglass is a composite.
Just like wood, manufactured composite materials come in a variety of toughnesses and elasticities..compare balsa versus pine versus oak.
I'd say Airbus has done an excellent job with their tailoring and use of composite materials. 20+ years of service from some of the earlier iterations of composite material without earning a negative reputation or having a bad streak...much of that time before practical NDT of composites existed (or maybe that was it...the inspection interval was conservative and chosen well before a part could fail).
Either way, think about taking a cantilevered wooden structure and freezing it several times a day and applying many varying loads throughout. Now multiply that times 15 years. Would it last?
I'm curious about the inspection methods for the Premiere I. Obviously they can't pop off a panel or remove a section for inspection (can they?). I've heard of an ultrasonic/thermal device that vibrates the structure and then looks for "hot" spots (fractions of a degree difference) where the edges of material are rubbing. This is supposed to help find delamination and cracking in its early stages.