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Procedure Chart For Flights Across The Andes  
User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1041 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Hi all,

I saw this in a video about Air Canada and wondered if a replica of this chart is available somewhere on the internet (it doesn't need to be the exact same one). It depicts procedures for flights across the Andes in case of a depressurization, because naturally, the aircraft, when it is flying overhead the mountains, can't just descend to an altitude where no oxygen is required. Thanks!

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9269/vlcsnap2010091218h50m33.png


'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinedispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Simple answer is NO.

Those charts are proprietary to the carrier involved, and are very costly to develop.



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlinesteiner From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4695 times:

But wouldn't it be possible to gather the information from official documents from the Civil Airspace Administrations of the countries involved? Or are the procedures universal, so ICAO might have some documentation on the issue?

Eventhough the map is proprietary the information is not secret, I guess?

Best regards
Steiner


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 49
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4686 times:

Quoting steiner (Reply 2):
But wouldn't it be possible to gather the information from official documents from the Civil Airspace Administrations of the countries involved? Or are the procedures universal, so ICAO might have some documentation on the issue?

Eventhough the map is proprietary the information is not secret, I guess?

Best regards
Steiner

The terrain charts, airways, and locations of navaids and fixes are not proprietary, but the individual tailored charts and procedures are specific to the airline and normally the equipment being flown.


User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1041 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4680 times:

Good to know.

I thought the chart was made by Jeppesen or some other company (it probably is by the way it looks) for airlines with flights to deep South America using "standard routes" across the Andes (are there this many anyway?). I might try to gather the information from the video as the actual quality is better there... for what it's worth.

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 1):
Those charts are proprietary to the carrier involved, and are very costly to develop.

I see you work as a dispatcher, does your company fly to destinations where the Andes have to be crossed and uses a custom-made one as well? Just curious. Thanks.

[Edited 2010-09-15 12:16:46]


'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4672 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 4):
I thought the chart was made by Jeppesen or some other company (it probably is by the way it looks) for airlines with flights to deep South America using "standard routes" across the Andes (are there this many anyway?). I might try to gather the information from the video as the actual quality is better there... for what it's worth.

Ours are printed by Jeppesen, but are custom tailored by and for our airline.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 4):
Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 1):
Those charts are proprietary to the carrier involved, and are very costly to develop.

I see you work as a dispatcher, does your company fly to destinations where the Andes have to be crossed and uses a custom-made one as well? Just curious. Thanks.

I'm not a dispatcher, but I work for a company that uses these and I have personally used them many times. Ours are custom made and printed by Jepp and come in our normal revisions.


User currently onlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4721 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4643 times:

Are these the same as the drift down charts that are used for (for example) the Himalaya or are they something different? (I'm obviously not counting about the differences in terrain, but the type of maps)


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1041 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4630 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 5):
custom tailored by and for our airline.

I guess that is the keyword here, and there is hardly a way to get that kind of procedure chart as an outsider then.

Well, my only hope is that video technology will allow me to at least remotely figure out the escape routes in case of a depressurization.

PS: For those who wondered why I ask that kind of question, it's because I do flight simming (with failures et al.) and when I fly down to SCL or so I want to be prepared for the unexpected.

[Edited 2010-09-15 14:09:34]


'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
User currently offlineZBBbird From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 58 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

I have this video as well and if I remember right they do show a few detailed shots of that chart and explain a few of the procedures for the section they are flying. Should be able to get some info from there.

User currently offlinedispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 4):
I see you work as a dispatcher, does your company fly to destinations where the Andes have to be crossed and uses a custom-made one as well? Just curious. Thanks.

We dont currently fly to that part of the world, but we have the terrain charts (ONCs and TPCs) so that if we were to start flying down there, we can design our own escape route charts, then have Jepp pretty them up for us. I went thru a Boeing Performance Engineering class last month in SEA, and doing this was one of the things we learned how to do.

If I remember correctly, for this particular area, its basically once your past this DME, and you lose pressurization, you continue. If you havent past that DME, you turn back with an intermediate level off so as to not embed your airplane against the mountain...



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4534 times:

Indeed these are proprietary, every airline has their own procedures and usually Jeppesen builds/charts them for the airline.

The map is the simplest part, usually along with the map there's like 5 pages worth of procedures and what not.


User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1041 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

Quoting ZBBbird (Reply 8):

Now that you say it, I remember the FO saying something like "[...] routes that are always used by Air Canada."

Quoting dispatchguy (Reply 9):
If I remember correctly, for this particular area, its basically once your past this DME, and you lose pressurization, you continue. If you havent past that DME, you turn back with an intermediate level off so as to not embed your airplane against the mountain...

Yes, they explain the map inflight. I'll have to watch it again, I guess.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 10):
The map is the simplest part, usually along with the map there's like 5 pages worth of procedures and what not.

Unfortunately they don't show this, probably the vast majority of the viewers is not too concerned about what exactly to do in case of a depressurization above the Andes. However, the map itself looks pretty straightforward.



'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
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