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Crew Requirements For 13+ Hour 77W Flight?  
User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4434 posts, RR: 12
Posted (3 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 28966 times:

Hello everyone,
I have asked this question over at Turkish Aviation threads but no answers.
TK is starting IST-LAX next March non stop with 77Ws. This would be TK's longest flight at around 6871 miles.
It might be well over 13 hours some days due to head winds.

As far as we know, these 77Ws will have 28J/63Y+/246Y

So,
What will be the crew requirements for this (cockpit/FA's) and how other airlines with similar routes handle it?

Thank you.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6725 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (3 years 12 months 8 hours ago) and read 28859 times:

My only experience of being in the cockpit on a long flight was MAN-FRA-HKG with CX in a B744 and there were 2 cockpit crews. IIRC from FRA-HKG, one crew did the take off and first few hours, then a second crew took over and did the landing. I presume that on-duty time limits mean that the crew handling the take off couldn't then do the landing 13 or however many hours later.

I don't think such long flights operate with two sets of cabin crew.

http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com...iation:ultra-long-haul-ulh-flights
http://www.fromthecockpit.com/Crew_Rest.html



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (3 years 12 months 6 hours ago) and read 28819 times:

The answer is of course it depends.
Up to 8 hrs, two pilots are enough. But with some authorities this is a strict limit, others go over up to 10 hours.
Then over this a 3 man crew will do up to about 12 hours, with some sort of bunk available..
Then a four man crew is required.
Every airline and national authority has its own rules, but my experience is that the FAA has the tightest rules on this, but if you make a landing and then carry on they let you fly longer.

For cabin crew the biggest requirement is somewhere to rest. But whether this is a bunkroom, or a couple of economy seats depends on the clout of the cabin crew union.

I remember when the B747-400 was introduced, and planes started flying over 10 hours. At first the cabin crew wanted spare crew carried on board, but after massive arguments it didn't happen.

I have found that as soon as someone states a rule on crewing on here, someone else will quote a different one!


User currently offlineTK787 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4434 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 12 months 4 hours ago) and read 28732 times:

Thanks for the answers;
From what I know TK has crew rest areas in the belly of the 330/340 aircraft. Same with the pilots, usually having 3 on board and 330/340 have a pilot rest area in the cockpit.
I have seen pics of 77Ws having space for two to sleep over the cockpit area.
Also, since TK will be operating to LAX, does FAA has a say on how many pilots should be on board?
Thanks.


User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (3 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 28688 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
does FAA has a say on how many pilots should be on board?

No. Its up to the Turkish Authorities

Many transatlantic routes are about 8 hrs long. If it goes one minute over 8 hours, the FAA insist on a third pilot.
Most other authorities do not!


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 12 months ago) and read 28627 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 1):
one crew did the take off and first few hours, then a second crew took over and did the landing.

I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.


User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 12 months ago) and read 28615 times:

Quoting TK787 (Reply 3):
I have seen pics of 77Ws having space for two to sleep over the cockpit area.

Hi!
Could you define what you mean with "to sleep over the cockpit area", please? A basic crew rest bunk in the belly or actually in/near the cockpit itself? If you are able to, you can also share the pics! Thanks!

[Edited 2010-09-22 14:48:28]


Et là tu montes encore plus haut et ça persiste, alors on vole
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 28442 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 6):
Could you define what you mean with "to sleep over the cockpit area", please? A basic crew rest bunk in the belly or actually in/near the cockpit itself? If you are able to, you can also share the pics!

There is no crew rest space directly over the cockpit (that's occupied by the P-5 panel and the CB panels).

However, the 777 does have an option for an overhead crew rest. If fitted, the access is through what looks like a closet door in the monument just aft of the flight deck door, and the crew rest itself is in the crown of the aircraft above the center stow bins.

Tom.


User currently offlinevmcavmcg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 28406 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 5):
I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.


Not true. Some airlines use a double crew with 2 Captains and 2 F/Os. And in that case, you could have the same crew do the takeoff and landing while other airlines have one crew do the takeoff and the other do the landing.


User currently onlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2129 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 28253 times:

This link shows you where the cockpit crew rest is on the 777.

http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices.../commercial/crewrest_location.html

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently onlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2129 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 28248 times:

BTW,

The 787 crew rest would be similar.

http://www.gorbico.com/images/787cutaway.jpg

The front crew rest is for the flight deck crew, the aft crew rest (near the vertical stabilizer) is for the cabin crew.

bikerthai

[Edited 2010-09-23 12:15:02]


Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlineLuftfahrer From Germany, joined Mar 2009, 1016 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 28228 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 9):

Thanks for the insight. I had never really expected there was a crew rest in the upper section of the aircraft, rather, I only knew about the bunks in the belly, or, on some aircraft, the pilots can take a rest on blocked seats in the First/Business class.



Et là tu montes encore plus haut et ça persiste, alors on vole
User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 28220 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 11):
I only knew about the bunks in the belly, or, on some aircraft, the pilots can take a rest on blocked seats in the First/Business class.

The long range BA B777 used to have bunks behind the flight deck.
They have been replaced with an overhead pilot crew rest. By juggling the galley around it has made room for some more seats.


User currently onlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2129 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 28217 times:

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 11):
I had never really expected there was a crew rest in the upper section of the aircraft, rather, I only knew about the bunks in the belly,

Boeing touted the crown crew rest as a way to increase revenue by avoiding losing passenger seats or lower lobe cargo.
The design was done approximately 8-9 years ago for the 777.

I bet if Airbus can do this (without infringing on any patent) they would do it too.

bikerthai

[Edited 2010-09-23 13:04:35]

[Edited 2010-09-23 13:06:17]


Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 28081 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 10):
The 787 crew rest would be similar.

There a picture of it from the Farnborough airshow:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Brimley



Tom.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 28072 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 5):
Quoting oly720man (Reply 1):
one crew did the take off and first few hours, then a second crew took over and did the landing.

I've never heard of such a thing. There are probably 2 relief pilots on board but they only work the cockpit when in cruise. The same pilots who took off are always the same pilots who land.

QF do it this way almost exclusively. Cpt & F/O must be in the front seats on take off & landing, "Second Officers" can be in the cockpit so long as either the Cpt or F/O is on duty between top of climb and start of decent. Pretty sure that the second officer is trained to be legal to land the plane from the right seat.

In Australia IIRC limits are:
8 hours block time & 11 hours duty time for 2 man crew
12:45 duty time for a 3 man crew
17:00 duty time for a 4 man crew

What this means is that the second officers are effectively deadheading on SYD-SIN (which continues to LHR or FRA) for example.

Second officer is the entry level pilot position. Why would you want that job?


User currently offlineTravelAVNut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1612 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 28051 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 14):
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 10):
The 787 crew rest would be similar.

There a picture of it from the Farnborough airshow:

I think I would sleep quite well in that bed!! Throw in some turbulence, my iPod, a reading light and a book and I wouldn´t mind a 12 hour flight  



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17038 posts, RR: 66
Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 28021 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 15):
QF do it this way almost exclusively. Cpt & F/O must be in the front seats on take off & landing, "Second Officers" can be in the cockpit so long as either the Cpt or F/O is on duty between top of climb and start of decent. Pretty sure that the second officer is trained to be legal to land the plane from the right seat.

CX also has Second Officers. I believe some airlines refer to them as "cruise pilots".



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently onlinebikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 2129 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 27962 times:

Quoting TravelAVNut (Reply 16):
I think I would sleep quite well in that bed!! Throw in some turbulence, my iPod, a reading light and a book and I wouldn´t mind a 12 hour flight

I heard somewhere that Boeing was considering something like this for the wide bodies (perhaps the 747--8I) as a selling point. They would build extra "modules" to put up in the crown so folks can rent out for the flight. Don't know if the cost analysis panned out.

bikerthai



Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined exactly 6 years ago today! , 917 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 27827 times:

I have a question somewhat related to the topic: What constitutes a crew rest area? Does it have to be completely secluded? Have its own lavatory? I know on the 764 (at least for DL), seat 7FG (when it was still F config.) would be spaced further back due to being crew rest seats. When I flew on the 763ER, there were two seats (maybe row 13?) that in the middle, were BizElite seats and they had curtains on both sides, and those were crew rest seats. But on some larger aircraft, it seems to be totally separated from the main cabin.

Those seats on the 764 that were supposed to be crew rest seats wouldn't be very comfortable IMO, due to the fact that the seats are right in the midst of first class with no separation whatsoever. So what do airlines constitute fair crew rest seating?

Picture of the 764 crew rest seats:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kevin E. Cook




"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 27810 times:

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 18):
I heard somewhere that Boeing was considering something like this for the wide bodies (perhaps the 747--8I) as a selling point.

It was called SkyLoft. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...oeings-skylofts-gets-new-bert.html

Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
What constitutes a crew rest area? Does it have to be completely secluded?

Not be any regulatory definition, but in several cases the pilots' contracts specify what kind of crew rest accomodation must be provided. As you might imagine, it's extremely variable between airlines all the way from nothing (you get a pax seat) to a completely isolated crew rest.

Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
Have its own lavatory?

I've never seen that yet.

Tom.


User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 27746 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 20):
Quoting c5load (Reply 19):
Have its own lavatory?

I've never seen that yet.

The overhead pilot crew rest on the BA777 has its own lavatory.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 27686 times:

Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 21):

The overhead pilot crew rest on the BA777 has its own lavatory.

That's *awesome*...airplane scavenger hunt time!

Tom.


User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4007 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 27628 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 22):
Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 21):

The overhead pilot crew rest on the BA777 has its own lavatory.

That's *awesome*...airplane scavenger hunt time!

Little story here.
BA has fitted overhead pilot crew rest (OHCR) to about 8 B777 in the last two years. It is not a Boeing supplied system, came from another supplier, and it has a lavatory.

Now when BA ordered their new fleet of B777-300ER, they decided to buy the Boeing fitted OHCR. Looking in the catalogue it came either with, or without a lavatory. BA ordered the one with the lavatory so it was the same as the B777-200ER s they already had. This caused Boeing a problem, as they had never built one before with a lavatory.


User currently offlinespeedmarque From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 27436 times:

Quoting tristarsteve (Reply 23):

Interesting. As far as I can see in the literature given to us Cabin Crew, the 77W at BA does not feature a lav in the OFCR. Can you confirm it does as the plan I have shows a closet where the Lav is on a 772.

Cheers


25 tod : Only after Flight Structures Inc of Marysville WA designed and installed door 3 overhead crewrests in 777 for BA and two other airlines.
26 tod : Some of the BA 744 have a lav in the door 5 overhead crew rest. Many 744 have the flight deck door installed between the 4U and 6U lavs in the upper
27 767eng : Yes it does, it's halfway up the staircase to the crew rest area.
28 Zkpilot : I think you mean Second Officers can be at the controls so long as either Capt or FO is on duty during the cruise. Also yes the SOs are trained to la
29 zeke : Under EU-OPS 3 crew would be able to go up to 15 hours duty, that is the flight time plus pre-flight and post flight activities. A number of factors
30 Starlionblue : Because airlines which have second officers hire pilots with little experience at that level. It is a necessary step towards becoming a first officer
31 sunrisevalley : So I expect all the flying they get is on the simulator.
32 aklrno : Don't the NZ 747s have a lav in the cockpit and crew rest area? Their are two upper deck passenger lavs in the rear of the upper deck but I have never
33 tod : Their configuration when new was two aft r/h lavs (8U and 16U ) in the upper deck, plus a 4U lav immediately aft of the flight deck and also on the r
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