71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2736 posts, RR: 0 Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4064 times:
US Airways had a football charter for Marshall going to Southern Miss and normally they would land at Hattiesburg (PIB), however this flight went down to GPT and they had to bus back up.
Somebody asked the coach about this on his radio show and he said they couldn't land at PIB because it had no control tower. Never seen a PIB charter go to GPT before.
Is it a US Airways policy that a control tower is required?
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8740 posts, RR: 52 Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3999 times:
I would have thought that they would be willing to land at an uncontrolled airport.
Quite a few airports that have commercial service have limited control tower operation hours. Other airlines have regularly scheduled flights to airports that are uncontrolled.
[Edited 2010-10-07 08:27:03]
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pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 12 Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3992 times:
There may be a requirement in their ops spec that they land at a towered airport during normal operations or charter flights. The other thing to consider is that many times at rural airports when the tower closes, the CFR closes for the day as well. CFR on the field is a 121 requirement.
Last but not least, the two carriers I've flown for have required an instrument approach into non-towered airports. Can't do a visual. Perhaps the field didn't have an approach to meet the weather conditions and they had to divert.
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 4744 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3879 times:
Quoting 71Zulu (Thread starter):
Is it a US Airways policy that a control tower is required?
No.
Quoting pilotpip (Reply 2): the CFR closes for the day as well.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5932 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3873 times:
Quoting pilotpip (Reply 2): Last but not least, the two carriers I've flown for have required an instrument approach into non-towered airports. Can't do a visual. Perhaps the field didn't have an approach to meet the weather conditions and they had to divert.
That actually seems (to me) to be more dangerous than flying a visual into an uncontrolled field. Nothing like shooting an ILS into an uncontrolled field when you're going against the flow Admittedly an extreme case, but I did lots of practice ILS'es into "indian country" up here in the Pacifc NW, a particular uncontrolled field where the active was usually not the ILS runway, and glider pilots and other yahoos who were VFR only and didn't like us flight school students using the field would do wierd things...and be rude to us on the unicom!
Or do you mean that the field must have an instrument approach to be considered as a viable destination in your ops spec?
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pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3792 times:
No, I mean we may not conduct a visual approach at a non-towered field or a field where the tower is closed. It's against our ops spec.
Glider pilots and other "yahoos" aren't making too many approaches at midnight when the tower is closed at the airports we serve and I'm using both radios, one is monitoring unicom and I usually start making position reports about 20 miles out.
packcheer From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 323 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3783 times:
When I was at NC State we played at Southern Mississippi as well. We chartered a DL 752 and we could not fly into Hattiesburg either. We flew into Jackson (JAN) and stayed the night, then bussed down the morning of the game. No reason why was given, but it was a long drive, even with the escort.
71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3572 times:
Thanks for the replies everyone. Don't think it is a weight issue. In 2007, ATA brought an L-1011 in when USM went to BOI. So far this year both JetBlue and AA has been there. The CFR is supposed to be at the airport standing by whenever an airliner lands and departs. We'll see what happens the rest of the year.
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5440 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3454 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4): and glider pilots and other yahoos who were VFR only and didn't like us flight school students using the field would do wierd things.
When you've only got one chance to land, plus have the general right of way, it's not a wierd thing at all; just the nature of things.
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4): Or do you mean that the field must have an instrument approach to be considered as a viable
destination in your ops spec?
This would depend on the deviations list, but for the most part, if you fly IFR 121, it's pretty much guaranteed that any airport in the C070 will have at least one viable approach based on land based navigational aids.
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MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13336 posts, RR: 64 Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3286 times:
What about airport fire service? In many cases fire service is only available as long as the tower is occupied.
I think to have fire and rescue service available at the landing airport is part of the FAR 121 requirements.
71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3251 times:
There is no tower at PIB, it is an uncontrolled field. The airlines must notify the airport manager in advance that they will be arriving so he can make sure the crash and fire equipment is standing by when you arrive and depart. PIB only shows as AARF Index A. Do they supplement that for airline ops?
NBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 597 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3095 times:
At my airport, operators are required to notify arpt ops 24hours prior to landing if they are carrying more than 30 pax. The ARFF truck is manned 30 mins prior to 30mins after arrival and departure, even if the tower is closed. One time Dartmouth played in the NCAA Basketball tourney, chartered an Express Jet ERJ-145. They landed just as the tower closed, then departed about 30 minutes later, but the ARFF was there the whole time.
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Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5440 posts, RR: 12 Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3085 times:
Of course, if the flight is scheduled, then there's no need for prior notification. The airport already knows that you're coming.
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RDUOODL From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2948 times:
Nick Saban absolutely flipped **** a few weeks ago when we told him his RDU-TCL would have to refiled for BHM. He couldn't understand why runway lights were important during a night arrival....
"Clearance, Delta 1291, Give it to me a little slower this time. It was too fast, I didn't get enough of it." ATC-"TWSS"
RDUOODL From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2881 times:
Quoting RICBWI (Reply 15): TCL doesn't have runway lights??? I thought teams fly out of there frequently after games--especially baksetball? A temp. situation I guess?
Did they divert to BHM??
It was brought to the dispatcher's attention before the flight departed RDU. They may have just been out-of-service. All the extra time to refile and run new paperwork didn't help. They probably would have been better off if they just departed and diverted. I figured he would have been in a pretty good mood after smashing the Dukies....I was wrong.
"Clearance, Delta 1291, Give it to me a little slower this time. It was too fast, I didn't get enough of it." ATC-"TWSS"
7673mech From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 632 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2835 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10): What about airport fire service? In many cases fire service is only available as long as the tower is occupied.
I think to have fire and rescue service available at the landing airport is part of the FAR 121 requirements.
Good point - that is what the earlier posters meant by CFR.
pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3082 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2708 times:
Quoting RDUOODL (Reply 14): Nick Saban absolutely flipped **** a few weeks ago when we told him his RDU-TCL would have to refiled for BHM. He couldn't understand why runway lights were important during a night arrival....
That's why Saban is a football coach and not a pilot/dispatcher.
dinker225 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1049 posts, RR: 20 Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2564 times:
Used to work at EGE for an airline. Got a call from the tower late one night when our last flight of the night was delayed. They simply asked if our airline required the tower to be open for arrival. I'd never heard such a thing and said no but inquired why they called. They said AA required a tower to be open. During the winter AA has alot of ops into the airport and apparently the controllers were happy to sit around for them if they were late.
Maybe there it has to do with the fact that EGE is deep in the mountains and at night they need it open?
Dinker
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71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2736 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2529 times:
Must have been an EGE thing because AA has been to PIB before and there is no tower there.
Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5440 posts, RR: 12 Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2477 times:
A possibility is that AA doesn't want to spend the time/money training crews for the ILS 25 at EGE. This leaves an LDA approach with high mins (1800-3) or a GPS approach with even higher mins (2400-3.) However, the LDA approach does not require that the tower be open, except via a note in the "Alternate minimums" section of the 11-1 page. AA may have also added a restriction to their ops requiring that the note would apply to all operations.
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AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3410 posts, RR: 50 Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2451 times:
Quoting dinker225 (Reply 19): They said AA required a tower to be open.
AA has standard procedures for operations when a control tower is closed. At EGE, the only additional requirement is that the "runway conditions can be verified with Operations or Dispatch."
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 21): A possibility is that AA doesn't want to spend the time/money training crews for the ILS 25 at EGE.
According to the FAA there is no ILS-25 approach for EGE. Only LOC/DME-25 and RNAV(GPS)-25 (which AA helped design originally).
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 21): AA may have also added a restriction to their ops requiring that the note would apply to all operations.
Nope, see above.
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Goldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5440 posts, RR: 12 Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2447 times:
Quoting AAR90 (Reply 22): According to the FAA there is no ILS-25 approach for EGE. Only LOC/DME-25 and RNAV(GPS)-25 (which AA helped design originally).
You're right, because it's a plate you have to pay for from Jeppesen. Like I said, AA didn't want to bother spending the money to train the crews that might only fly in once every few years, and to add to that, buy the special plate that affords vastly improved minima.
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AAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3410 posts, RR: 50 Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2388 times:
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 23): You're right, because it's a plate you have to pay for from Jeppesen.
In all honestly, I do not believe you. If the FAA has approved a full ILS approach to EGE, it has yet to list it in the FAA databases. AA would LOVE to obtain authorization for an EGE approach with lower minimums and cost is not the issue --AA paid dearly to design and qualify the RNAV(GPS) approach to EGE... even with the higher minimums (back-up for when LOC goes "down"). To date, there is no full ILS approved for EGE.
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25 DiamondFLyer: Yup, 100% with you. If it was a private use airport, I could & would understand not being able to find the approach plate floating around the int
26 Goldenshield: Don't believe me all you want, the plate still exists: ILS OR LOC/DME RWY 25. Your lack of access to the approach is not my problem. The Silver ILS fo
29 dinker225: You got that right. That time of night there was nothing going on at the airport. Maybe an odd biz jet arrival. I'd sit around for time and a half to
30 Northwest727: Granted, US Airway Express (operated by Piedmont) is a separate regional airline contracted by US Airways, but they just landed in HVN the other night
31 KELPkid: Actually, It is MMV to which I refer No offense to anyone who regularly uses it...
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From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2736 posts, 
Admittedly an extreme case, but I did lots of practice ILS'es into "indian country" up here in the Pacifc NW, a particular uncontrolled field where the active was usually not the ILS runway, and glider pilots and other yahoos who were VFR only and didn't like us flight school students using the field would do wierd things...and be rude to us on the unicom!
From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13336 posts, 
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