mrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1203 posts, RR: 3 Posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3655 times:
Don't ask me to spit out data that proves it, but for some reason I've been noticing that 110.3 is a more common ILS frequency at airports worldwide. Flying abroad, I've noticed that this frequency has popped up on more than just a few Jepp charts and I was beginning to wonder if perhaps there was a correlation (perhaps somewhat loosely historical in nature) that tied it together?
Or pure chance and I'm loosing it?
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
777ORD From United States of America, joined May 2010, 355 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3439 times:
I, too, have noticed this. If not 110.3, then frequencies close to it (not completely inclusive). The only conclusion I can come to are these:
1) It's a set frequency range selected for the type of operation. Although, I have not read any firm facts on the matter
2) Maybe similar thought process to why a majority of us airports have "ground.8" as 121.8 for example. For a sort of commonality type of thing.
Perhaps just coincidence, but you got me thinking! This'll give me something to do at work.
doug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3163 posts, RR: 4 Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3371 times:
Quoting 777ORD (Reply 1): 1) It's a set frequency range selected for the type of operation. Although, I have not read any firm facts on the matter
ILS frequencies are 108.10 through 111.9 I believe. It does seem that some occur more commonly, but that might be happenstance and perception based on the airports I operate into most often.
Quoting 777ORD (Reply 1): 2) Maybe similar thought process to why a majority of us airports have "ground.8" as 121.8 for example. For a sort of commonality type of thing.
411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3362 times:
110.3 was the first ILS frequency selected, when the system was developed in 1938. The second frequency was 109.9, and these two frequencies were used extensively until additional frequencies (within the present ILS band) were allocated.
mrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1203 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3354 times:
Quoting doug_Or (Reply 2): ILS frequencies are 108.10 through 111.9 I believe. It does seem that some occur more commonly, but that might be happenstance and perception based on the airports I operate into most often.
You may be right, Doug. I just can't tell you how many times I've pulled the appropriate chart from the bag once given the expected runway for landing and turned to dial in the freq in to the pedestal only to do a double-take and chuckle to myself that it's 110.3 and already dialed from the last run.
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
ThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1634 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3283 times:
The airport where I learned to fly didn't have an ILS until1960 but I recall it being 109.9. The airport 60 miles away was 110.3.
We also had, 60 miles in the other direction, one of the last 4-course ranges in the country and had a few Red airways, as well.
Northwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3157 times:
Quoting doug_Or (Reply 2): ILS frequencies are 108.10 through 111.9 I believe.
The localizers operate on, according to AIM 1-1-9(b)(1), "40 ILS channels within the frequency range of 108.10 to 111.95 MHz"
RaginMav From United States of America, joined May 2004, 372 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3155 times:
Quoting doug_Or (Reply 2): S frequencies are 108.10 through 111.9 I believe.
That is correct. Also, in the USA, ILS and LOC frequencies always end with an odd number. You will never 110.2 as an ILS frequency, although it may well be a VOR frequency.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5932 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3011 times:
Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 6): Quoting doug_Or (Reply 2):
ILS frequencies are 108.10 through 111.9 I believe.
The localizers operate on, according to AIM 1-1-9(b)(1), "40 ILS channels within the frequency range of 108.10 to 111.95 MHz"
Just for kicks and grins, anyone know what the corresponding glideslope frequencies are? I know that, in a modern NAV receiver, you never have to hand tune the G/S, and that there is a fixed localizer to glideslope frequency pairing.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
b78710 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 337 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2994 times:
Quoting RaginMav (Reply 7): That is correct. Also, in the USA, ILS and LOC frequencies always end with an odd number. You will never 110.2 as an ILS frequency, although it may well be a VOR frequency.
yup. same here. ILS are odd ending 108 - 112 MHZ and VOR's are the evens.
mmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 527 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2980 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8): Just for kicks and grins, anyone know what the corresponding glideslope frequencies are? I know that, in a modern NAV receiver, you never have to hand tune the G/S, and that there is a fixed localizer to glideslope frequency pairing.
Times the LOC freq by 3...you'll usually get the GS freq..
FredT From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2002, 2184 posts, RR: 26 Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2964 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8): Just for kicks and grins, anyone know what the corresponding glideslope frequencies are?
The complete table is in ICAO Annex 10 Volume I. Unfortunately, ICAO does not publish its publications online. However, check Wikipedia if you are satisfied with an un-official source. Haven't double-checked it against Annex 10, but should be good enough.
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10462 posts, RR: 20 Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2813 times:
Quoting 411A (Reply 3): 110.3 was the first ILS frequency selected, when the system was developed in 1938. The second frequency was 109.9, and these two frequencies were used extensively until additional frequencies (within the present ILS band) were allocated.
And the reason why was in those days (of which 411A is so familiar with), radios typically used crystals, especially when high frequency stability was needed, so each new frequency needed a new crystal.
Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 6): The localizers operate on, according to AIM 1-1-9(b)(1), "40 ILS channels within the frequency range of 108.10%u2009to 111.95 MHz"
Sure, now that phase locked loop synthesizers can be implemented in the area less than a grain of sand, it's no problem, but we are talking about a system that dates back to 1938, when radios used vacuum tubes, discrete resistors, capacitors, coils, etc as well as crystal controlled oscillators.
Flight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3291 posts, RR: 7 Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2750 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 8): Just for kicks and grins, anyone know what the corresponding glideslope frequencies are?
navion1217 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 19 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2513 times:
I think it has to do with the wavelength of the radio signal and the physical length of the reciever's antenna. It has probably changed with modern technology and tunable antennas, but the length of the antenna determines which frequency it will recieve "best". Notice that 110.3 is almost in middle of the LOC frequencies, the reciever's antenna is physically "tuned" to the middle of the range and performance degrades towards the ends. Like most popular FM radio stations are near 100, in the middle of the FM broadcast range.
Of course thinking about it, most GA airplanes use the same antenna for LOC and communications. Hmmm. Broadcast strength can make up for a lot too. When I was at the ERAU dorms, we would often get aviation band transmissions from the tower breaking in when listening to FM radio. I would think that the voice broadcast is a lot higher power transmission that the LOC. I'm starting to argue with myself. Anyway, the frequencies in the middle of the range will have the best performance.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10462 posts, RR: 20 Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2351 times:
Quoting b78710 (Reply 15): I seem to want to say the aerial should be 1/4 of the wavelength.
Yes, and at 110 MHz, wavelength = (speed) / (frequency) = (3 x 10**8) / (110 x 10**6) = 2.73 meters (rounded)
So a quarter wave is about 68 cm or 27 in long.
No surprise it's about the length of a car aerial, which is trying to pick up a similar frequency band (88-108 MHz).
Quoting navion1217 (Reply 14): I think it has to do with the wavelength of the radio signal and the physical length of the reciever's antenna.
Wiki says:
Quote:
A localizer (LOC, or LLZ until ICAO designated LOC as the official acronym) antenna array is normally located beyond the departure end of the runway and generally consists of several pairs of directional antennas.
Since you need several pairs of antennas, smaller is better (easier to build, easier to maintain, more survivable in harsh weather, etc).
But as above, this was being done a long time ago:
Quote:
Tests of the ILS system began in 1929,[7] and the Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) authorized installation of the system in 1941 at six locations. The first landing of a scheduled U.S. passenger airliner using ILS was on January 26, 1938, as a Pennsylvania Central Airlines Boeing 247-D flew from Washington, D.C., to Pittsburgh and landed in a snowstorm using only the Instrument Landing System.
And as I've mentioned, it was very hard to get a stable signal at those frequencies in those days using the kinds of devices they had available to them, or perhaps they'd have gone even higher in frequency.
mrskyguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1203 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2269 times:
Quoting 411A (Reply 3): 110.3 was the first ILS frequency selected, when the system was developed in 1938. The second frequency was 109.9, and these two frequencies were used extensively until additional frequencies (within the present ILS band) were allocated.
Hoorah! Im not crazy afterall!
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
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I know that, in a modern NAV receiver, you never have to hand tune the G/S, and that there is a fixed localizer to glideslope frequency pairing.
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