Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7538 times:
The simple answer is yes, ALL air traffic in the US must maintain an airspeed of 250 KIAS when operating below 10,000 feet. However, there are a few exceptions. For example, there is a program at DFW where ATC authorizes high speed climbs.
Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6228 posts, RR: 8 Reply 3, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7528 times:
Long-haul flights (say 5000 miles and up) out of any US airport typically request clearance for 270-280 kts just after departure, and it's ordinarily approved. I assume this applies below 10000 ft?
Contact_tower From Norway, joined Sep 2001, 536 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7514 times:
In europe it's the same, answer YES!
But offcourse, exceptions is allways possible, and somtimes favourable......
The 250kts "speed" limit is just a way to simplefy approach and departure sequence, thus ending up with less delays in the grand scale!
Mr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 25 Reply 5, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 7486 times:
I would say 250knots below 10,000 feet applies everywhere but I think most airplanes would request up to 280 knots and it is approved most of the time, at least in SIngapore.
LAPA_SAAB340 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 388 posts, RR: 5 Reply 6, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7458 times:
If I'm not mistaken, when the Concorde departs Heathrow it is allowed a maximum speed of 310 knots. Perhaps someone else knows if the same occurs at de Gaulle?
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 7444 times:
One of the exceptions to the general rule of no airspeeds faster than 250 KIAS below 10,000 feet is that if the minimum safe speed is faster than 250 kts, then the aircraft may be operated at that safe speed. I have no idea what the minimum safe airspeed would be for the 747 (it's dependent upon weight, of course) but I have a pretty good idea that they're being operated at 250 kts also. Remember at the rates of climb that they can achieve, it's only going to take 3 or 4 minutes until they're out of 10 and can "get on down the road." As far as the Concorde goes, I honestly don't know too much about it. I'm still waiting to get enough money to take my dream trip - NYC to London on the QE2 and London back to NYC on Concorde.
Top Gun From Canada, joined May 1999, 101 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7437 times:
You are all mostly correct.
If you are cleared to any atlitude below 10000 you must slow down to below 250 when hitting 10000 (decending).
If you a cleared to an altitude above 10000 you can go as fast as you want, keeping in mind the Noise procedures.
For example:
You take off in a 767. The SID takes you to 3000. Once cleared to your enroute altitude of FL330 you can climb at 280 if you chose to. Maybe you're tired and want to arrive sooner, you can climb at 300.
ATC would love to get you out of their airspace sooner to make more room for the arrival of other A/C.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 7438 times:
Maybe that procedure is approved in Canada, but it would be one of the quickest ways I could think of to possibly get violated here in the States. We recently had a simular issue at work. We frequently operate out of airports which are located underneath overlaying Class B airspace. As you know, the maximum allowable airspeed in this type of airspace is 200 KIAS. One of our aircraft, a Gulfstream G-200 requires leaving the flaps and/or leading edge devices extended in order to safely fly at an airspeed 200 KIAS or less and at higher weights, the Gulfstream requires airspeeds of around 220 KIAS to "clean the wing." There was a discussion on this subject recently on the NBAA website. The following is a typical one made by a captain for a major airline: "...If my weight nets a required clean min speed above 250 kts below 10,000' I can accelerate to that speed, period. There is no requirement that you fly with flaps/slats out so you can stay below 250 or 200 kts below the lateral limits of Class B, etc."
I found his comments interesting since I had been flying the Gulfstream with the slats and krugers extended on those occasions when operating below the lateral limits of Class B airspace. I had always assumed that it was necessary to do so to be legal. Just for grins I contacted a good friend of mine who is an FAA inspector. I asked him the following question: "...is it necessary to maintain a configuration (slats and Kruger flaps deployed) that will allow the aircraft to comply with the 200 KIAS speed limit when operating beneath the lateral limits of Class B airspace or is it acceptable to fly the aircraft in the "clean" configuration even though the minimum safe airspeed in the clean configuration is above the 200 KIAS limit?"
He sent me the following reply:
"...The FAR's do not prohibit that operation. Now that I have said that let me explain the finer points about working with ATC and the FAA.
1. If you are at a low altitude and exceed 200 or 250 there is a record made by ATC and ATC may question you. However your flight in question will end up as an
investigation at the FSDO. When you are contacted regarding the "possible fracture" of 91.117 and you tell them what you told me it will probably be closed with no action.
2. You have 2 choices (1) configure the airplane to maintain the speed limits or (2) fly clean at the higher speed.
3. If you maintain speed limits and configure the airplane to do so, no problem end of subject.
4. If you clean the airplane up and accelerate to the speed required be absolutely positive you tell ATC on each frequency you operate on the reasons for exceeding the speed limits while in the airspace discussed in 91.117. Remember ATC spaces aircraft distances based on speed. This should preclude a FSDO investigation.
If you read 91.117(d) it does not specify the aircraft configuration. All it says is "...any particular operation..."
The decision is yours. Hope this helps."
There you have it. The answer to the question is both yes and no, depending on how badly you want to get "up close and personal" with an FAA inspector.
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 824 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7405 times:
FAR 91.117 is the rule responsible for this 250kts under 10,000ft fracas (in the US)...
My interpretation is that as long as you get ATC concurrence you can exceed 250 knots under 10,000ft. Otherwise no you can't exceed 250 knots or 200 knots, whichever applies.
Cheers
Woodreau / KMVL
"91.117 Aircraft Speed
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000ft MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots. This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots.
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7404 times:
In the U.S. the CFR (FAR) 91.117 applies to all operations in domestic airspace. The rules in other countries vary. ATC cannot waive any of the requirements under the regulation. ATC is NOT "the Administrator"!
Under sub-paragraph (d) many heavy jets do require faster speeds, these include the 747s, although I think that the MD-11 has the highest min maneuver speed of all the civi jets (Concorde excluded) of 289kts when at max weight. Aircraft requiring these higher speeds do not need to request it, but many pilots will advise ATC as a courtesy.
Timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6228 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7379 times:
Sounds like you're saying that if a heavy is heavy enough to need some flap to maintain 250 kts, then maintaining 250 kt to 10000 is unsafe. Is it actually unsafe to climb unclean?
Woodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 824 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7366 times:
Well we need to go to FAR Part 1
where
"1.1 General Definitions
'Administrator' means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned."
So my take is that ATC can authorize deviations to 91.117 as the "Administrator."
Cheers
Woodreau / KMVL
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from surviving bad judgement.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7363 times:
Seagull is absolutely correct. ATC is NOT the "Administrator" and controllers can not authorize diviations. As I mentioned in a previous post, there are ppecific locations where the Administrator has authorized general exceptions, take DFW for example. DFW controllers can and do ask you to pick up the speed. Other exemptions are to accomodate minimum safe airspeeds that happen to fall outside of the limits. Finally there are operational necessity & emergencies that allow you to deviate. Personally, I've deviated from the rule many times - back in the mid-80's I was a Life Flight pilot flying Citations and MU-2 air ambulances. When the flight nurse or physician told us to "step on it" that's exactly what we did. We just told ATC that we needed to keep our speed up. We'd keep the speed at the barber pole until it was necessary to start slowing down for landing. All the FISDO guys wanted from us was the usual deviation letter. I bet I filled a couple of dozen of those forms over a 3-year period. As I mentioned in my last post on this subject, my FAA buddy gave me the FAA's interpretation of this issue. It's best to follow their advise unless you have a burning desire to spend some "guality time" with one of their inspectors.
Rydawg82 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 774 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7339 times:
How does this work in lets say Denver....You are already half way to the limit, does it just remain 10,000 ft or do they raise the mark?
Ry
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
Ywg_jy From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 91 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7337 times:
As for the rules in Canada:
Airspeed Limitations
(1) No person shall operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet ASL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots.
(2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.
(3) Notwithstanding subsections (1) and (2), a person may operate an aircraft at an indicated airspeed greater than the airspeeds referred to in subsections (1) and (2) where the aircraft is being operated on departure or in accordance with a special flight operations certificate.
(4) Where the minimum safe speed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the speed referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe speed.
This is taken from the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARS) available on-line at: http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/CARS/html_e/doc/nav-20.htm
Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7332 times:
As I stated in my previous post, the regs I cited applied to U.S. domestic airspace only. I am aware of the different rules in other parts of the world, where controllers have more discretion, but such is NOT the case in the U.S., period. Don't believe me, take it up with the FAA Chief Counsel or manager of Air Traffic if you want to, I don't care. FSDO may or may not be able to answer the question, but any answer they give is not legally binding anyway (meaning that if the Chief Counsel disagrees, the Chief Counsel wins, every time).
The intent of 14 CFR 91.117 is not to force heavy jets to leave flaps/slats out to climb. We are expected to clean up and fly at clean MMS until 10000'. You can take that up with the Chief Counsel in Washington D.C. as well if you are so inclined.
Skystar From Australia, joined Jan 2000, 1363 posts, RR: 3 Reply 21, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7320 times:
I thought the maximum allowed speed, when not 250kias was roughly V2+100 (min clean speed).
It makes no sense flying heavy airliners, IMHO, with flaps down below 250kias because there's increased aerodynamic noise, and climb performance is impeded - increasing noise.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7322 times:
Seagull makes a very valuable point. It makes absolutely no difference what they say at your local FSDO. They can be and often are overruled and guess who loses when the FISDO says that you can do something and Oaklahoma City and/or Washington says you should never have done it? You'll lose everytime. One of the biggest frustrations in trying to work with the feds is to try and get firm commitments or intreptations out of them. Dang near impossible. I doubt if you could get them to put in writing that the sun usually rises in the east and normally sets in the west.
Seagull From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 340 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7317 times:
Just to clarify, Oklahoma City does not make rulings, FAA is run from Washington D.C., all legal interps come from inside the Beltway.
Jetguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (10 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7316 times:
I knew that.
25 EssentialPowr: Clearances are frequently given to exceed the 250kt speed limit below 10,000 MSL in the IAH class B as part of a study the FAA is doing to "increase c
26 Blackbird: You can exceed 250 Kts below FL100 if your aircraft's minimum maneuvering speed (clean) is more than that. Our ATC's have very little leeway in allow
27 EssentialPowr: So are you disputing the experiment @ IAH?
28 411A: Some may be interested in what happens when aircraft has a birdstrike at low level-- In 1985 at Khartoum, Sudan an Ethiopian Airlines B727 struck an (
29 Jetguy: 411A, I was in Scottsdale today, what a rainy day. This issue with birdstrikes is why I personally don't like going fast down low. I've had more than
30 Eham06: All the aircraft under FL100 have a maximum speed of 250knt. However there are some exceptions, pilots can asked for special permission to go faster t
31 RJ: Essential Power, I have flown out of IAH on numerous occasions and you are correct. You can exceed 250KIAS in IAH's Class B airspace. It is part of a
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