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Navigation Aids Used By Both Ships And Airplanes?  
User currently offlineDainan From Sweden, joined Sep 2005, 69 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5879 times:

I was watching a clip of a airplane landing on a small island surrounded by many ships which got me wondering. Are there, or were there ever any navigation aids that both airplanes and ships could use?
At airports like London City Airport, do they use a common com frequency for ships and airplanes? I only assume that it woudn't be wise for a sailship to pass the end of the runway with an Avrojet spooling up four engines for take off :p

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6010 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Currently: GPS

Formerly (at least in the U.S, anyhow) : LORAN

Formerly: Celestial

And as a backup in both cases, Pilotage.

[Edited 2011-02-28 04:39:26]


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineNorthwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5849 times:

To add to the list above, I think DECCA was also used as used in both aviation and ships.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9604 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

A Compass…

Yes I know that is a bit facetious, but it is true.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineXaraB From Norway, joined Aug 2007, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5751 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):

Let's add stars as a glimpse of history as well  



An open mind is not an empty one
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13990 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5712 times:

Medium wave radio beacons using the ADF

Jan


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6818 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

Ambrose lightship outside NY harbor used to be a radiobeacon on the aero charts-- maybe it still is. Must be other NDBs that ships and aircraft both use?

User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5679 times:

Quoting Northwest727 (Reply 2):
I think DECCA was also used as used in both aviation and ships.

The DECCA Navigator was designed for ships, but widely used by aircraft.
It was the driver of the moving map display on the dH Trident in the 1960's.
The DECCA chain covered most of Europe, and the East coast of the USA.


User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5637 times:

Maybe the question is what aircraft nav systems are NOT used by others means of transport? Light beacons and VOR/DME/TACAN? (are all of those manifestations of the same thing?)

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5634 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
Medium wave radio beacons using the ADF

Jan

I was going to say that myself. Port Angeles, WA, USA featured a dual-use NDB beacon at one point, attached to the Coast Guard air station  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineDainan From Sweden, joined Sep 2005, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 months 23 hours ago) and read 5601 times:

I am always so amazed at how knowledegable people on this forum are. I had to goole a lot of new words (DECCA what? :P )

Interesting to hear that quite a few navaids were used by both airplanes and boats. But I always thought that boats couldn't make use of NDBs and VORs since they would be too low to capture the signals,


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8958 posts, RR: 40
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

I once read in these forums someone (or someone who knew someone) who is/was a pilot and used, just for fun, sextants on their Atlantic crossings. This was a while ago so details are fuzzy, but supposedly it was relatively accurate, predicting landfall on the other side by just a couple of miles.

I only remember this because I thought to myself if I was a pilot, that would be something cool to do.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6894 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I once read in these forums someone (or someone who knew someone) who is/was a pilot and used, just for fun, sextants on their Atlantic crossings.

For quite a while before, during, and for a time after WWII long distance (over ocean) flying relied on sextants. Ernest Gann talks about it in "Fate is the Hunter."



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlinewoodreau From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1036 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 months 22 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

LORAN-A then LORAN-C was originally designed for ships and then it was adapted for aviation use. Now it's been decommissioned.

The shipboard equivalent to NDBs was the radio beacon and ships use a RDF (radio direction finder) to use it. But radio beacons are rare things these days. They were used to transition from open ocean navigation to coastal piloting.

Ships do use GPS but once you get in confined waters it's not accurate enough for general usage, just like GPS is not accurate enough for aircraft to use in the terminal areas and for approaches. Aircraft use a space based augmentation (WAAS in the US) ships use ground based augmentation-differential GPS. The system is installed at all commercial ports and harbors in the US.

Once a ship gets in confined waters the means of navigation are visual piloting and navigation/dead reckoning plot, radar nav, and differential GPS. Celestial is still done but in open ocean navigation in conjunction with basic GPS and the dead reckoning plot.

Comm wise ships use a different frequency band - the marine band (go figure) and can't access aviation frequencies just like aircraft cannot access the marine band. Ships don't tune radios like airplanes do. Instead they switch channels. Channel 16 is the international hailing and distress frequency. It is like 156.8MHz or something like that. In the US channel 13 is used. If you want to talk to another ship you hail it on channel 16 and then switch to another channel that you can agree on.

That doesn't prohibit a ship from having an aviation radio to talk to airplanes or an airport tower from having a marine radio. The difference is that a marine frequency is an open freq there is no control agency who is in charge of the freq. If you can talk on it you do- it's more like a unicom or ctaf. Whereas is you tried to talk on tower or ground for non tower or ground related things the tower controller or ground controller would squash you.
Having a



Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 months 21 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

Quoting woodreau (Reply 13):
ust like GPS is not accurate enough for aircraft to use in the terminal areas and for approaches.

Quite the contrary. Even non-WAAS aircraft with IFR certified GPSs can navigate in terminal areas and perform (non-precision) approaches. The only difference with WAAS is that you can do CAT I/glidepath approaches. WAAS is designed to give you accuracies better than 10ft. A non augmented GPS signal is good for 45ft accuracy on average, and it's normally much better than that.


User currently offlinealaska737 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1063 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 8):
NOT used by others means of transport? Light beacons and VOR/DME/TACAN?

Light beacons can be argued, since boats use a lot of lighted nav aids. I mean a light house is the same thing as a rotating beacon without the green light.

On another note, in Alaska (Im sure its the same in a lot of other places as well) the float plane pilots use nautical charts and most of them have a marine radio on board.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5635 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 months 20 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):

For quite a while before, during, and for a time after WWII long distance (over ocean) flying relied on sextants.

QFs B707-338s had domes in the cockpit roof to allow for sextant use. They also carried navigators until well towards the end of B707 operations, especially to South Africa.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 5479 times:

Quoting Dainan (Thread starter):
Are there, or were there ever any navigation aids that both airplanes and ships could use?

I think Omega could be used by anybody...ships and aircraft included, although I can't swear that both actually did it.

Tom.


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1646 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 months 17 hours ago) and read 5477 times:

I can think of one form of marine navigation that never quite made it into aviation. The ancient Polynesians could navigate over vast distances of open ocean by "reading" wave types and currents. That is like flying from Dallas to Chicago by recognizing individual clouds

User currently offlineNorthwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 months 9 hours ago) and read 5380 times:

Quoting woodreau (Reply 13):
Ships do use GPS but once you get in confined waters it's not accurate enough for general usage, just like GPS is not accurate enough for aircraft to use in the terminal areas and for approaches

This is incorrect, as GPS can be used in the terminal area and for approaches. Don't believe me? Have a look for yourself:

AIM 1-1-19: http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...pubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-19

Garmin GNS 430A manual: http://www8.garmin.com/manuals/GNS430_PilotsGuide.pdf

GPS Approach


Quoting gemuser (Reply 16):
QFs B707-338s had domes in the cockpit roof to allow for sextant use. They also carried navigators until well towards the end of B707 operations, especially to South Africa.

BOAC VC-10s had a port on the upper fuselage (between the navigator and flight engineer's seat) in which a sextant could be inserted and used, and removed if needed. You can see it in this photo protruding from the ceiling right in the middle of the frame:

VC-10 cockpit. Photo source: www.vc-10.net


[Edited 2011-03-01 06:19:52]

[Edited 2011-03-01 06:25:18]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13990 posts, RR: 62
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 8):
Light beacons

Light beacons were used extensively during the late 1920s up to the 1940s to mark airways and airfields. Even today almost all airfields have a rotating light beacon (white flashing for civilian airports, green-white for military ones).

Quoting woodreau (Reply 13):
Channel 16 is the international hailing and distress frequency.

this is VHF shortrange ship to ship or ship to shore only. 2.182 MHz USB is the international SSB HF hailing and distress frequency and has (especially at night) a much greater range than VHF. I live quite far away from the coast, but if I tune my HF receivers to this frequency, I can easily receive calls from Ireland to the Mediterranean (even with my mediocre antenna).

It used to be 500 KHz for CW (Morse code) transmissions, but practically all countries have stopped using this service about ten years ago (I think China is still providing coastal radio service in Morse code).

Jan


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13990 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 5278 times:

Quoting alaska737 (Reply 15):
On another note, in Alaska (Im sure its the same in a lot of other places as well) the float plane pilots use nautical charts and most of them have a marine radio on board.

Because when they are on the water, they are counted as maritime craft and have to obey the rules for ships.

Jan


User currently offlineNorthwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 5262 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20):
Even today almost all airfields have a rotating light beacon (white flashing for civilian airports, green-white for military ones).

Judging by your flag, it must be a country varience   In the USA, the rotating beacon for a civilian airport is an alternating green and white flash, for military, its a green and double-white flash.


User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4403 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5105 times:
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Before Loran and Decca nav systems were out, there was a German invention called the CONSOL, working on long waves with a number of stations around the Atlantic coasts of Europe - their main user was the Kriegsmarine and the U-boote .
It was a rather ackward system as it relied on the operator listening to a succession of dots and dashes, counting them and identifying the -at least two - stations involved.
For a well-trained operator, the precision was rather good, and very useful for marine search and rescue. As far as I know, the last station, at Ploneis in Brittany was closed in the late seventies, but I was told that the antennae are still there.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
oting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I once read in these forums someone (or someone who knew someone) who is/was a pilot and used, just for fun, sextants on their Atlantic crossings.
For quite a while before, during, and for a time after WWII long distance (over ocean) flying relied on sextants. Ernest Gann talks about it in "Fate is the Hunter."

The use of a sextant was certainly not for fun and lasted until the Inertial platforms had been validated. As a young ex-cadet with a Nav ticket, I participated in those trials, using the famed Kollsman periscopic : bubble sextant. It looks like the one pictured on the VC-10 pic above. Funny to think that all the manuals necessary for that kind of navigation - Star tables, HO 249, Logs, ephemeris....- weighing some thirty kilos, are now contained in a PDA !
It was a phenomenal learning experience as we youngsters could see the true magic of a well-experienced aircrew on free gyro / polar compass navigation.
Funny, too, that you lot forgot the inertial navigation, which killed the nav officer on board airplanes. As a matter of fact, that was the reason, we were doing those validation flights : the younger nav officers were been transformed into pilots.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21561 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

Quoting Dainan (Thread starter):
At airports like London City Airport, do they use a common com frequency for ships and airplanes? I only assume that it woudn't be wise for a sailship to pass the end of the runway with an Avrojet spooling up four engines for take off :p

I can't speak to LCY, but here's a chart for Boston:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1102/00058IL4R.PDF

Note the change in minimums when the tower reports tall ships in the approach area. So the tower must have some way of knowing that those ships are there. While boats and aircraft don't have the same sort of comm equipment in general, I'd imagine that the tower at BOS has a marine radio, and the ships will call the tower and let them know that they are moving through the area, and then the tower can relay that to the aircraft.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 Post contains links Fly2HMO : Sounds similar to the long obsolete four course range. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-VqtNY8vpw
26 Post contains links Pihero : Not at all, the Consol was a complete positioning nav system, whereas the "four course range" beacon system only provides a *line of positions" one n
27 alaska737 : That isn't true at all, they use them for depth and so they get an idea of underwater reefs and rocks.
28 Fly2HMO : Ah gotcha. I got the impression the dots and dashes would've been used in a similar fashion to a 4 course range.
29 woodreau : I stand corrected on gps for the terminal area and approaches. Thank you. I was trying to figure why I thought that in the first place. I do remember
30 Fly2HMO : Which is odd considering even my basic Garmin handheld GPS can be set to show the coordinates of pretty much every geodetic datum out there. You'd th
31 woodreau : The capability is there with the WRN-5 which is used aboard ship but was operator error. But it is not user friendly like your garmin is. The crew nev
32 David L : I don't know about the navy but a few small boats have come to grief due to the crew plotting waypoints and neglecting to check what lay between them
33 CharlieNoble : I think Jan was referring to the marine radio. When a seaplane is on the water, it does have to follow the COLREGS (Navigation rules for vessels). Th
34 Northwest727 : That's pretty interesting. With marine travel being far older than aviation, you'd think that some sort of "regulating body", like an "ICAO of the se
35 Post contains images Fly2HMO : Ouch. Somebody got fired after that.
36 CharlieNoble : The nautical realm definitely is a whole different ballgame. Along with what Woodreau said about datum issues, many charts haven't been updated for d
37 timz : What datum differs by two miles from WGS84?
38 MD11Engineer : This applies to aviation as well. When GPS controlled autopilots came up in GA, there were a lot of complaints about VFR pilots just pressing the "go
39 rwessel : INS and Omega, as well. INS being developed initially for ballistic missile subs. An then there were several Soviet/Russian systems that paralleled th
40 doug_Or : Not sure how similar the practices were, but I believe in the celestial nav days the navigator would use wave size and direction to try and determine
41 Pihero : That would be the determination of the famed PLOP ( acronym for *pressure line of position* ) in the pre-INS days, when navigation was an art and an
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