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A330 Crosswind Difficulty  
User currently offlinecraigpc01 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 31 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7450 times:

This is NOT a Bus vs. Boeing thread. I am wondering from real pilots who fly the A330 (or have) why the aircraft can be 'tricky' to land in crosswind as compared to other airliners similar in size?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7423 times:

Quoting craigpc01 (Thread starter):
the aircraft can be 'tricky' to land in crosswind as compared to other airliners similar in size?

And just who or what is the source for that unfactual claim?

[Edited 2011-03-07 20:31:50]

User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2706 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7431 times:

I do not fly the A-330 but I did have a jumpseater a few months ago who was a check airman on it for more than five years and while talking about 'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles, he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6930 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7389 times:

If it is too tricky to land in such a situation:
1. Go-around and go somewhere else
2. Go and blame the guys who certified the aircraft.

I do suggest... go and ask the guys who flies those aircraft and see if they think it's tricky or not... I have not met one who says "the 330 is one b17ch to land!"...



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinecraigpc01 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7371 times:

I did hear it directly from an A330 pilot. He did not say it was a 'b17ch to land', he said crosswinds can be "tricky". Wanted to hear other opinions.

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17073 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7299 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
I do not fly the A-330 but I did have a jumpseater a few months ago who was a check airman on it for more than five years and while talking about 'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles, he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

Even from my experience here on a.nut tech ops I have found there are pilots who simply do not like one type or another, and will bash it beyond any rhyme or reason. This is typically not based on facts and is definitely not supported by operational experience.

If the 330 were a "disaster waiting to happen", more disasters would have happened. The figures speak otherwise Total 330/340 accidents with fatalities: 2 (1 in service). Of these two, one was due to human factors. The other is, granted, still not solved.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1632 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."



Ow please, go sell your flaimbate somewhere else.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Even from my experience here on a.nut tech ops I have found there are pilots who simply do not like one type or another, and will bash it beyond any rhyme or reason. This is typically not based on facts and is definitely not supported by operational experience.



  

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
If the 330 were a "disaster waiting to happen", more disasters would have happened. The figures speak otherwise Total 330/340 accidents with fatalities: 2 (1 in service). Of these two, one was due to human factors. The other is, granted, still not solved.

Indeed, and the one not solved had nothing to do with a crosswind landing.

Hopefully PGNS or Pihero can slam some sense into this thread.



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4608 posts, RR: 77
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7164 times:
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Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
a check airman on it for more than five years and while talking about 'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles, he said "The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

I suggest you check more carefully the credentials of the people you take in your flight deck.

Wishful thinking ?
Considering that the A330 is now just about 20 years old...   
And "stirring the pot oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles (???) ", meaning in my own dictionary *self induced turbulence* and being a check airman with a five year experience on the plane, I thought US flight training was way better than his example.

Seriously, now, people complicate concepts that are quite simple. We know the geometry of a crosswind landing, the recommended first technique being *the crab* with wings level. Upon touch-down, cancel the drift (i.e De-crab ) et voilà !
Your gear struts are compressed at the same time, spoilers deploy and reverse thrust is at your disposal.
I know I will cause some chagrin to some diehard anti A, but that technique is used also on the 'Bus.
The piloting bit is , in this case exactly what one would use on any other aircraft.

The forward slip technique, recommended for the Tristar (and the Ten, I was told...) requires a different type of action on the sidestick : a continuous feeding the bank in and then neutralizing the impending yawing effect by re-centering it, and again and again.
After a very short while, one realises that what matters is the end-product of one's control inputs, and not the way one would need them.

I have 15 years on the 'Buses and have never felt unsafe during very gusty winds across the runway (done so to the demonstrated limits of the 318, 319,320, 321, 333.
The only one that shows some difficulty is the 318, aka *the microbus* as it's light and the controls veeeery lively. Yeah, on that one, you have to be mindful of self induced oscillations.

Well, if one doesn't feel right about the look of the approach,

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 3):
If it is too tricky to land in such a situation:
1. Go-around and go somewhere else
2. Go and blame the guys who certified the aircraft.
Quoting travelavnut (Reply 6):
Hopefully PGNS or Pihero can slam some sense into this thread.

Thanks; Don't forget the resident 'Bus specialist, Zeke.

As an illustration, this is a link to a utube video on a windy day at Gatwick.
Two airplanes in succession : a 777 and a 330.
Compare both techniques

[Edited 2011-03-08 04:52:52]

[Edited 2011-03-08 04:53:38]


Contrail designer
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2706 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6978 times:

Guys, listen.

I put that quote from the guy into this thread because there he was, 20-30 years experience on Boeing, Douglas, and Airbus jets telling me that he thought the A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen. Of course I'm sure he was exaggerating a little but what would the point of this forum be without people throwing in some opinions?

He was not the first 330 guy I've heard say that the thing is a bit tricky in crosswinds.


User currently offlinebuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 6944 times:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 8):
Guys, listen.

I put that quote from the guy into this thread because there he was, 20-30 years experience on Boeing, Douglas, and Airbus jets telling me that he thought the A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen. Of course I'm sure he was exaggerating a little but what would the point of this forum be without people throwing in some opinions?

He was not the first 330 guy I've heard say that the thing is a bit tricky in crosswinds.

I've flown with many ex-Boeing captains who do exaggerate the shortcomings of the Airbus product. It's no surprise to hear such a ridiculous statement coming from pilots who are used to flying American metal. In the flesh, I've met many an airmen who show much more bias against a certain type of aircraft as compared to even the armchair pilots here on a-net.

A disaster waiting to happen? Hardly. I haven't had a problem with it during crosswinds at all. In fact, some of my best landings come when the crosswinds exceed 10 kts. I have no idea why, maybe it's because I concentrate more.

The only modern aircraft I have universally heard that's tricky to land in crosswinds is the MD-11. Even then, it's far fetched to say any type of modern aircraft is 'a disaster waiting to happen'. In the hands of an incompetent pilot, any aircraft can be a disaster waiting to happen.


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4608 posts, RR: 77
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6927 times:
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Quoting buckfifty (Reply 9):
In fact, some of my best landings come when the crosswinds exceed 10 kts. I have no idea why, maybe it's because I concentrate more

There has been a lengthy discussion on that phenomenon as a vast majority of aircraft handlers think the same.
In some circles, the consensus is about the transformation in the apparent wing geometry relative to the airflow at the moment one decrabs : the aspect ratio diminishes and the induced drag rises just about at the moment when the ground effect tends to reduce the induced drag.
The result is in fact a very *transpârent* ground effect, masked by the drag rise, thus making the flare corrections quite a lot simpler, without the *step* caused by ground effect.

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 8):
I'm sure he was exaggerating a little

I'd really hate to see him when he's really exaggerating.
I don't mind opinions. Just depends on people's objectivity, honesty and sincerity.
Otherwise, just logorrhea. And I've seen it.
and so have I flamebaits.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4375 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6848 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
The figures speak otherwise Total 330/340 accidents with fatalities: 2 (1 in service). Of these two, one was due to human factors. The other is, granted, still not solved.

You forgot one: Afriqiyah Airways flight 771 which crashed last year with the loss of 103 out of 104 passengers and crew.

That makes 3 (2 in service).



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17073 posts, RR: 66
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6676 times:

Quoting redflyer (Reply 11):
You forgot one: Afriqiyah Airways flight 771 which crashed last year with the loss of 103 out of 104 passengers and crew.

That makes 3 (2 in service).

***facepalm*** Oops! Yes you are correct.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinebrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 7):
As an illustration, this is a link to a utube video on a windy day at Gatwick.
Two airplanes in succession : a 777 and a 330.
Compare both techniques

What was done differently? I didn't catch it. Both looked about the same to me. Very smooth, both of them.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17073 posts, RR: 66
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 7):
As an illustration, this is a link to a utube video on a windy day at Gatwick.
Two airplanes in succession : a 777 and a 330.
Compare both techniques

What was done differently? I didn't catch it. Both looked about the same to me. Very smooth, both of them.

If I'm not mistaken, that was Pihero's point. Same technique despite different control systems and stick vs yoke. "A plane is a plane" in this case I guess.  



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4608 posts, RR: 77
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6362 times:
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Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 14):
If I'm not mistaken, that was Pihero's point. Same technique despite different control systems and stick vs yoke. "A plane is a plane" in this case I guess.

Exabsolutely, Starlionblue !

A pilot's job is to master his/her plane, whatever the control inputs it requires, provided that control input is - somehow - intuitive : a good example is , on a cable-and-rod aircraft, the need to counter the overbanking tendency of the plane at highish bank angles, by having the control wheel in opposite direction to the turn.
If one watches carefully, one coud see a repeted up/neutral movement of the left aileron.



Contrail designer
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17073 posts, RR: 66
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6297 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
Exabsolutely

You spelled that wrong. It's actually "exabsotively". 



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6930 posts, RR: 76
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6235 times:

Quoting craigpc01 (Reply 4):
He did not say it was a 'b17ch to land', he said crosswinds can be "tricky"

Sorry, but saying:

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
"The A-330 is a disaster waiting to happen."

Is a lot worse than saying it's a bi7ch to land, and does not correlate to "can be tricky".

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 2):
'stirring the pot' oscillations with the sidestick and autothrottles

He obviously have difficulty with Airbus' pitch command and autotrim logic. However, "thumb gets numb" oscillation with the yoke and autothrottles, seems consistent with 737s on A/P off and A/T on approaches in gusty conditions....   

"stirring the pot oscillation" equates "hand job self-satisfaction with a little push-pull violence" on yoke aircraft... (in the words of a pervert who flew both).   

Give pilots a free session on "how many ways you can slag off aircraft types you don't like", and U'd be amazed how convincing some of them can be in their exaggerations.   

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4608 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6181 times:
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Quoting mandala499 (Reply 17):
"stirring the pot oscillation" equates "hand job self-satisfaction with a little push-pull violence" on yoke aircraft... (in the words of a pervert who flew both).

Not true ! I never ever ever said that !!!   

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
You spelled that wrong. It's actually "exabsotively".

I bow to your supertior culture !
  



Contrail designer
User currently offlinebuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5961 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):

There has been a lengthy discussion on that phenomenon as a vast majority of aircraft handlers think the same.
In some circles, the consensus is about the transformation in the apparent wing geometry relative to the airflow at the moment one decrabs : the aspect ratio diminishes and the induced drag rises just about at the moment when the ground effect tends to reduce the induced drag.
The result is in fact a very *transpârent* ground effect, masked by the drag rise, thus making the flare corrections quite a lot simpler, without the *step* caused by ground effect.

I think I'll just stick with the 'I was just concentrating very hard sir' bit.  


User currently offlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4608 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5868 times:
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Quoting buckfifty (Reply 19):
I think I'll just stick with the 'I was just concentrating very hard sir' bit.

We pilots tend to want to know the whys and the hows of our trade.
Sometimes to an extraordinary level : I've seen - and participated - in a discussion on how to brake as smoothly as one can, discussion that went into maths and physics details on friction / deceleration... in the end, the conclusion was that the best stopping-smoothly technique is when there's no braking at all before a complete stop.
True.
(Apparently, the younger generations have forgotten it as very often, there's the end-jerking motion of the stopping vehicle )



Contrail designer
User currently offlinemusang From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2001, 865 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5848 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
(Apparently, the younger generations have forgotten it as very often, there's the end-jerking motion of the stopping vehicle )

This is one of my pet hates aswell, another is an abrupt release of the brakes after running up to 75% on take-off. What must the customers be thinking?

Regards - musang


User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6930 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
Not true ! I never ever ever said that !!!

I didn't say it was you!    But then again... sorry if it's coincidentally the same as you mon ami!   

Quoting musang (Reply 21):
What must the customers be thinking?

Errrrr.... "YEEEHAAAA" ?????

Quoting musang (Reply 21):
This is one of my pet hates aswell

It's funny to be in the cabin when this happens and one passenger remarks, "there must be a newbie in one of the seats up front..."   



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offline330guy From Ireland, joined Nov 2010, 453 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

It's funny this thread popped up, today I was at DUB watching some x-wind landings and seen 2 EI330's come in and they both appeared to be struggling, they came in one after the other and had a hard time of it (including one looking like a bobble head on a car dashboard) next up was a 737 that didn't appear to have too much trouble.... I'm not saying they have a problem or anything but just weighing in with what I saw this morning


Aircraft flown: a300/10/20/21/30/40, b727/37/47/57/67/, DC9, MD80-90, l1011, f50, atr42/72, shorts360, pc12
User currently offlinebuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Sometimes to an extraordinary level : I've seen - and participated - in a discussion on how to brake as smoothly as one can, discussion that went into maths and physics details on friction / deceleration... in the end, the conclusion was that the best stopping-smoothly technique is when there's no braking at all before a complete stop.
True.
(Apparently, the younger generations have forgotten it as very often, there's the end-jerking motion of the stopping vehicle )

My brother taught me how to drive when I was young, and it is the same exact theory which I apply to my day to day driving. As long as you can release the pressure on the nose oleo at the last second, the aircraft will not bob at all as it comes to a stop. It's funny though how many can get this wrong.

But the thing that's hard to master is holding onto the brakes coming to the gate in a linear fashion. That is, apply a level of consistent braking without lifting at all until the last second. I think it's more of a feel issue rather than a technical issue, with the differences in incline and surface conditions at each and every gate.

It shows that a pilot has attention to detail if they can do this perfectly. A sign of competency comes in many forms.


25 Pihero : The theory I alluded to calls for a diminishing brake pressure with diminishing speed, in order to achieve a constantly diminishing deceleration.....
26 CHRISBA777ER : One man's pet hate is another's heaven - who still does this? I need to know! I've not experienced this since a TXC 757 to IBZ a few years back - "sp
27 Pihero : Reminds me of a time long ago where I wasd a young DC-4 F/O doing some mission in Africa. T'was hot and sticky and we were all in shorts and desert b
28 buckfifty : No no, I understand what you said perfectly. Maybe I should have written it in a more concise manner. It's exactly what you described, but what I fin
29 EstorilM : Hmm, this is an interesting thread - and let me start by saying that I'm totally unqualified to state any opinions on the matter (so I won't) but I ca
30 zeke : At light weights the minimum approach speed is increased above Vmca, however for most operating weights this is not a consideration. Ground effect is
31 PGNCS : It can be difficult with an incline, or with tight turn-ins (slowing, tight turns is one place I find the Airbus more difficult to taxi than others,)
32 Post contains images EstorilM : I am Cool reply by the way, and I'm extremely envious of your job - perhaps some day I'll fly something that won't fit inside the engines of the plan
33 zeke : Wiki is wrong again then, the AR on the A330/A340 is 9.26, the A320 series is 9.39, 737NG 9.44, MD80/90 9.62.
34 Aircellist : Splendide! It reminds me of my first driving lesson as well... So many bus drivers in Montreal seem to have forgotten that one. Great to see pilots t
35 musang : What we find in the Limitations sections of the flight manuals are Max Demonstrated Crosswind Components, which are chosen because that was the highe
36 tdscanuck : A/R primarily goes to induced drag. Higher A/R means lower induced drag, all other things being equal. It has no direct connection to fuel burn, form
37 buckfifty : About 70% to 80% of the ports I operate to have guidance systems now, and they're awfully sensitive to the speed you're going at. So instead of slowi
38 glen : It is just the opposite way: The published figures are the highest crosswinds they found for testing - and it is left to the average line pilot to de
39 PGNCS : Your point is well taken; I wish I had anywhere close to that percentage of guidance systems available. Parking is an art, and I'm glad you mentioned
40 tdscanuck : That's not exactly true...the FARs require that the landing be possible by pilots "without exceptional skill." I.e. you have to be a trained pilot bu
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