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Crew Rest And DST Changes  
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 912 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

The US goes on Daylight Saving Time this weekend. Most of the rest of the world is in a few weeks.

How does overnight crew rest work when clocks go forward/backward by an hour? Is the rest period defined by the actual (stopwatch) length of time or the stated (clock) length of time?

My suspicion is that this is an obscure part of flight crew contracts rather than in the actual regulations, and that the stated length is used.

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8986 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2380 times:
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Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):

Aviation business calculates in UTC only. And UTC doesn't change at all. No matter if winter or summertime, so no problem at all.

And just because the local time change, they doesn't change the crew rest. If I need 12 hours, I get 12 hours. No matter what happens with the time. I won't get paid another flight hour as well if the time is changed during my flight. If the flight is 12 hours long, I get paid 12 hours.

wilco737
  

[Edited 2011-03-11 05:24:59]


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 912 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
No matter if winter or summertime, so no problem at all.

Actually, it does create a problem. If a scheduled 8-hour rest period fits between a 2200 and 0600 arrival, but the clock moves forward an hour in the middle, then scheduling would have to change crew assignments or the entire schedule just for one day of operations.

Since it's a zero-sum game across the year, that's why I'm suspecting this is something that unions might look the other way on and allow for easier operations.


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8986 posts, RR: 76
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2363 times:
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Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 2):
Actually, it does create a problem. If a scheduled 8-hour rest period fits between a 2200 and 0600 arrival, but the clock moves forward an hour in the middle, then scheduling would have to change crew assignments or the entire schedule just for one day of operations.

If you see it that way, yes, then you have a problem. But Usually the times are not planned that tight. If I would have such a short rest and the time changes, I would delay the flight for an hour, as I wouldn't be legal anymore. I need 12 hours rest, no matter if the time has changed or not.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2311 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 2):
Since it's a zero-sum game across the year, that's why I'm suspecting this is something that unions might look the other way on and allow for easier operations.

Not likely, and I suspect the FAA might not look the other way either...



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 2):
Since it's a zero-sum game across the year, that's why I'm suspecting this is something that unions might look the other way on and allow for easier operations.

Its only a factor in a min rest scenerio. If you the min required rest is 10 hours, but the scheduled rest period is reduced from 12 to 11, there is no problem. In a min rest situation you either delay the departure, get the operating crew at least an hour earlier, or get another crew in there to do the trip.



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User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 2):
Since it's a zero-sum game across the year, that's why I'm suspecting this is something that unions might look the other way on and allow for easier operations.

That assumes that the same people who get the short end of the stick when it comes to daylight savings time starting are the same people who get the benefit when daylight savings time ends, and that's not necessarily the case. Second, you can't just bank an extra hour of sleep from the fall and use it to replace a lost hour in the spring - you can't even bank sleep from one day to the next. One way or another, minimum rest must be respected, and that's a certain number of hours, not what it says on the clock. Either delay the next flight, mess with the schedule to get the previous flight to arrive earlier, or get a second crew.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 2):
Since it's a zero-sum game across the year, that's why I'm suspecting this is something that unions might look the other way on and allow for easier operations.

Absolutely not. If they have to change the flying for the short layover trips, they will. The FAA does not allow exceptions to crew rest rules for DST implementation, nor do any pilot contracts I am aware of. The trips are built by computer most places anyway, and the software is fully capable of building legal trips during the DST changeover.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2132 times:

With virtually every decent sized airline (except Southwest for example) using UTC, things like DST don't matter.

Just as Wilco737 mentions, something like 10-hours of rest in UTC, is still 10-hours of rest regardless of what the local time happens to change to.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
With virtually every decent sized airline (except Southwest for example) using UTC, things like DST don't matter.

The airline may operate on UTC, but the passengers don't. If you have a crew on min rest, and you don't want to move the departure time, you have to find a way to adjust the crew's rest period.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25049 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Quoting lowrider (Reply 9):
The airline may operate on UTC, but the passengers don't. If you have a crew on min rest, and you don't want to move the departure time, you have to find a way to adjust the crew's rest period.

You guys are confusing two things.

Movement of local time should not have effect on crew rest. Virtually all airline are run on UTC, the crew pairings are built in UTC, the flights schedules are built in UTC etc.

Yes the customers get to see local time, but the airlines operations and planning are run on UTC, so a crews schedule will be what it is regardless of local time changes. Airlines adjust public schedules accordingly months in advance if needed.

In 10-years of managing an airlines operations control center, I don't recall a single instance where schedules got bungled or we had crew issues when local times changes occurred. It simply had zero effect on the operation as we always stuck to UTC which never ever changes regardless if we operated in India, UK, Japan or Texas.

This whole thread is about essentially a non-issue.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
This whole thread is about essentially a non-issue.

Absolutely correct.


User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
I don't recall a single instance where schedules got bungled or we had crew issues when local times changes occurred.

No, but back when I dealt in two legged self loading freight, I remember some odd ball dead heads scheduled to accomadate DST. Not a last minute scramble, just some ineffficiency that had to be dealt with.



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