Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Hard Landing - post-incident procedures?  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20333 posts, RR: 59
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6938 times:

On approach into an airport on a stormy day, you experience a hard landing that knocks a few of the O2 mask doors open.

What happens to you now? Is this the sort of thing where you fill out the paperwork and never hear about it again unless you have a huge number of them? Or is this a whole investigation, etc.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6931 times:

Procedures will probably vary a bit from company to company, but at mine it would generate a log book write up and, depending on the vertical speed at touch down, possibly a hard landing inspection. If the FDR did register a hard landing, there will be additional paperwork to fill out including a narrative. Depending on the circumstances surrounding the event, the history of the individual, and the findings of management, consequences will range from a warning not to make a habit of it up to and including termination.


Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlinecontrails15 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6736 times:

This is gonna seem very vague but there is a procedure in which a pilot fesses up to what they did "wrong" which consists of them reporting what ever it is right away. Its called something but for the life of me I forgot.


Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6694 times:

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 2):
This is gonna seem very vague but there is a procedure in which a pilot fesses up to what they did "wrong" which consists of them reporting what ever it is right away. Its called something but for the life of me I forgot.

I wonder if you're thinking of this program, operated by NASA?
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/index.html


User currently offlinecontrails15 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

Thats it Viscount. Nice job man. LOL A pilot told me about it one day as we were BSing on the headset.


Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5154 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6674 times:

Hard landings happen all the time. While the pilot flying may have his/her hand on the stick, it is not always his/her fault.

If there were damage in the landing, it eventually would be found out when it happened. It is always best to log it and report it to maintenance. They will follow the proper procedures from there. More often than not, we are our own worst judges, and the landing was not hard enough to be a concern.

I have never opened up the oxygen mask compartments, but I HAVE knocked the sunglasses off my First Officer's nose! And after maintenance investigation of the FDR, it was not hard enough to warrant any further action.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6548 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

What happens to you now?

Well at my former airline the captain would file an incident report (the way most of them treated it was just to cover their ass). Then they would request MX do a hard landing inspection. 99% of the time the plane was fine. The QAR discs from all planes were pulled daily and sent to the analysts at the FOQA program, the hard landing disc would eventually come into their hands in a day or two and if the recorded values for loads and what not exceed certain parameters the flight would be "flagged" and more in depth analysis would be performed, and the crew of said flight contacted for interrogation, err... explanation  


User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6476 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
Quoting contrails15 (Reply 2):
This is gonna seem very vague but there is a procedure in which a pilot fesses up to what they did "wrong" which consists of them reporting what ever it is right away. Its called something but for the life of me I forgot.

I wonder if you're thinking of this program, operated by NASA?
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/index.html

There is also the FAA ASAP program which is used by many airlines in the U.S.
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/asap/


User currently offlinelke2fly From United States of America, joined May 2011, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5818 times:

If a pilot had a missed approached would that fall under the same rule has to right it up to CYA them selfs, and write it up on the log book or is there a different procedure that needs to be followed for a missed approach? I'm sorry but whats a FDR? I know that there are several hard landings everyday and I think the pilots try very hard to make the landing as smooth as possible but sometimes mother nature has a different idea.

User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5764 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):

I have never opened up the oxygen mask compartments, but I HAVE knocked the sunglasses off my First Officer's nose!

I guess step one of the post landing checklist, The comment "nice landing captain", was omitted that day?

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 8):
If a pilot had a missed approached would that fall under the same rule has to right it up to CYA them selfs, and write it up on the log book or is there a different procedure that needs to be followed for a missed approach?.

A missed approach wouldn't warrant an inspection or anything so I doubt it. But I am not a pilot so I might be wrong. The only thing that happens on a missed approach is that the engines spool up to climb power and the gear goes up and down one more time. Shouldn't be an issue.

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 8):
I'm sorry but whats a FDR?

An FDR is a Flight Data Recorder. It is one of the orange or "black boxes" that are in the back of the plane and records all the planes movements and instrumentation read outs. It sits next to the CVR Cockpit Voice Recorder. Most planes have two FDR's these days. One in the back in case they crash the thing and a second one in the electronics bay which is used for maintenance purposes and would probably be looked at after a hard landing. The one in the electronics bay looks a bit like a massive USB stick.

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 8):
I know that there are several hard landings everyday

At certain airlines, Delta for example, it is a standard operating procedure to announce arrival by putting a crater in the runway. I sometimes really doubt if they even try to "land" it at Delta. (this is just my experience with them though, perhaps just bad luck)

[Edited 2011-05-13 04:53:03]

[Edited 2011-05-13 04:55:48]

User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5722 times:

My C-130 days there was inspection criteria for a "hard landing" however there was no guidence as to what a "hard landing" was. That was left totally to interpretation by the flight crew. I've been a crew on many "firm landings" but never a "hard landing"

I'd imagine quite a few others would be soley judgement calls as to when to perform a hard landing inspection.


Oh as for missed approaches nothing is logged or tracked for aircraft history/maintenance. Those are done quite regularly on training evolutions. Pilot log books would be logged as an approach providided it wasn't a pure visual.


User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 287 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5685 times:

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 10):
My C-130 days there was inspection criteria for a "hard landing" however there was no guidence as to what a "hard landing" was. That was left totally to interpretation by the flight crew. I've been a crew on many "firm landings" but never a "hard landing"

+1 one that!
If you think it was a hard landing in a C-130, you've put her down at what she was designed to do!
(Might add, crew comfort was not part of that criteria.   )

Erich



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Quoting bj87 (Reply 9):
and a second one in the electronics bay which is used for maintenance purposes and would probably be looked at after a hard landing.

If it is what I am thinking then that is not an FDR per se but a Quick Access Recorder (QAR). While yes it records even more stuff than even an FDR would, it is not hardened nor designed to withstand crashes and uses removable media, usually Magneto-Optical discs. Just thought I'd make that distinction, as I worked in a FOQA program retrieving and processing said disks.


User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 670 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5638 times:

If a pilot believes he/she has had a hard landing, they will write a logpage and the aircraft will be taken out of service. In the US, a pilot can make a report to the NASA or ASAP programs. With the NASA program, the FAA has agreed not to use any info given in the report, against the person. The ASAP program differs in that the Airline and Pilots group(union) and FAA are in partnership (not all airlines are part of the ASAP program). No action will be taken against the pilot by the FAA or Airline. With either program, all bets are off if it is determined that the reported event was grossly negligent, willfully done, person under the influence, etc.

With the aircraft out of service, maintenance will perform a hard landing conditional inspection, or preferably have the memory card from the DFDAU read and determine that there wasn't a hard landing. If nothing is found, logpage is signed off, aircraft is returned to service.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 12):
If it is what I am thinking then that is not an FDR per se but a Quick Access Recorder (QAR).

Named DFDAU or Digital Flight Data Acquisition Unit. My airline currently uses pcmia cards for memory.


User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5732 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5625 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 8):
If a pilot had a missed approached would that fall under the same rule has to right it up to CYA them selfs

No. Missed approaches happen far more often than hard landings, and don't cause any issues by themselves (although the go-around may be caused by something else breaking).

Nobody ever questions a go-around/missed approach. If the pilot feels it's not safe to continue, well, that's all anyone needs.

Also, missed approaches are often ordered by a controller.

Quoting bj87 (Reply 9):
At certain airlines, Delta for example, it is a standard operating procedure to announce arrival by putting a crater in the runway.

The only "airlines" to make a habit out of hard landings are the Navy and Marines.  
Quoting yeelep (Reply 13):
With the NASA program, the FAA has agreed not to use any info given in the report, against the person.

Also, should the FAA via an independent investigation determine that a pilot or controller screwed up, they can use that report as a sort of "get out of jail free card", deferring any administrative actions. This is, of course, provided that the actions weren't deliberate or committed while under the influence.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5617 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 8):
If a pilot had a missed approached would that fall under the same rule has to right it up to CYA them selfs, and write it up on the log book or is there a different procedure that needs to be followed for a missed approach?

No need to file an ASAP or NASA form for a go-around unless you inadvertently disobeyed an ATC instruction or FAR and that led to the go-around. There's almost never any reason for to cover your a$$ for a go-around.

The only time you'd have to write anything in the aircraft logbook is if the go-around were due to failed equipment on the aircraft like a navigational radio or difficulty with the landing gear or flaps.

The only other things I can think of that would probably necessitate reporting a go-around to the company are if the go-around were caused by a near mid-air collisions or someone shooting a laser into the flight deck.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

Quoting yeelep (Reply 13):

Named DFDAU or Digital Flight Data Acquisition Unit

I've also heard that one. The naming seems to vary with the manufacturer. Our airline used Teledyne boxes.

http://www.teledynecontrols.com/productsolution/qar/QAR.asp


User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5541 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 12):
If it is what I am thinking then that is not an FDR per se but a Quick Access Recorder (QAR).

Yes that is what I meant. I couldn't think of the acronym at the time so I just labeled it a second FDR considering it pretty much does the same. I'll add it to my list of acronyms to remember.  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
The only "airlines" to make a habit out of hard landings are the Navy and Marines.

haha, yeah and they even get paid for it.


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 671 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5329 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 16):
The only "airlines" to make a habit out of hard landings are the Navy and Marines

And Ryanair...



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlinelitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1783 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5162 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Several years back, when Ryan Intl (not .eu's ryanair) was flying A320s for AirTran (prior to delivery of the 737s), I was on an ATL-LAS flight ... coming down into the Vegas airport, we smacked the runway ... and I mean smacked ... a few O2 doors popped open, several bin doors popped open, etc. It was a seriously firm thud.

Guy behind me goes "well, I know where HE learned to fly" ... and his buddy chimes right in "yeah, the deck of the Kennedy ..."

- litz


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20333 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5084 times:

Quoting litz (Reply 19):

Guy behind me goes "well, I know where HE learned to fly" ... and his buddy chimes right in "yeah, the deck of the Kennedy ..."

Right up there with, "Sonny, did we land or were we shot down?"


Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Hard Landing - post-incident procedures?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
A Question For Pilots. posted Wed Nov 25 2009 02:53:57 by Jayeshrulz
Altimeter Question For Pilots posted Fri Jun 8 2007 15:06:14 by Dougloid
Question For Pilots Regarding Analog Cockpits posted Sat Apr 28 2007 14:27:24 by Trentin
Question For Pilots: Landing Gear posted Sun Mar 21 2004 23:15:49 by AR385
CG Question For Pilots Or Despatchers posted Tue Apr 1 2003 18:33:48 by LMML 14/32
Question For Pilots And F/a's posted Mon Sep 9 2002 06:09:28 by AgnusBymaster
Question For The CRJ Pilots posted Sat Aug 22 2009 19:53:10 by WestJetForLife
Question For IAH Spotters And Pilots posted Sat Jan 26 2008 18:27:36 by William
Question For 737-200 Pilots - Engine Out At Wheels posted Thu Aug 30 2007 07:18:32 by GreginAlaska
A Question For COEx Pilots... posted Tue Mar 6 2007 16:46:45 by COA739ER

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format