Sponsor Message:
Aviation Technical / Operations Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Manual Start B767?  
User currently offlinedivemaster08 From Cayman Islands, joined Jul 2008, 342 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5748 times:

Hey gotta question for some Gurus.

On Friday BA flt 253/252 was delayed. My father was on the flight and the story being told to the PAX were that one of the engine starters was broken and they would have to start the aircraft engine manually.

Now not knowing the full tech details I am wondering what or how that is done!


It wasnt a cross bleed, as from what i have heard, that would mean that the starter would still be functioning and its just getting its bleed from the other engine than the APU.

Flight 252 left GCM later than it was suppose to (after the origional delayed departure time) and then the same happened with the NAS dep to LHR. I am thinking that this may be due to the "manual" start procedure. Anybody know any details on this?


My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN901WA From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5734 times:

It must have been a bad start Valve. If the starter was broken, there is no way to turn the eng to start it on the ground. They must have tried to troubleshoot the start valve or did not have one in stock, so the MTC guy had to manualy open and close the start valve during start. Or they changed it that cause the delay. HTH

[Edited 2011-06-05 16:16:53]

User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5601 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5732 times:

If the starter was broken, the engine could not be started. The start valve failed to open when selected. In order to manually start the engine, a 3/8" drive extension (24"+ long) on a 'T' handle is inserted into a hole in the cowl and into a receptacle in the start valve. The valve is opened by turning the wrench. The engine start is coordinated with the flight deck and at 50% N2, the tool is turned back to closed and removed.

Pretty standard for large engines.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinehercppmx From United States of America, joined May 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5606 times:

Quoting N901WA (Reply 1):
. If the starter was broken, there is no way to turn the eng to start it on the ground

While you would never see it happen in Civil Aviation there is a way to start an engine if the starter is inop. I know it can be done on turboprops, Im not sure if it would work on turbofans. Sorry not trying to side track the thread but it's an interesting side note.

It's called a buddy start. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXj0sQzljUw



C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5595 times:

Looks like a recipe for a FOD disaster...

User currently offlinelke2fly From United States of America, joined May 2011, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

A similar thing happen to me on a AA MD-82 flight from Tennessee to DFW. The right engine started up but fine but the left engine did not. The capt. said that we needed assistance to start the left engine. As I looked out my window I saw the MTC guy drive an APU unit right next to the engine and run some sort of lines into the engine. What he did I have no clue but i could only guess he was jump starting the engine. It was scary because if the the engine needed to have the APU start it, I was hoping the engine would shut off in mid flight. The flight did land safely at DFW..but it was scary.

User currently onlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 973 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5526 times:

I realize this suggestion borders on lunacy, but I wonder if it would work if you used one engine and a fast taxi to get the other going. Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air? I certainly wouldn't expect this to happen in any commercial application, but if you had a slightly broken empty aircraft on the ground in a war zone, could you get it out of the area this way?

Maybe I'm just nostalgic about being able to push start cars in the old days.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5520 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
I realize this suggestion borders on lunacy, but I wonder if it would work if you used one engine and a fast taxi to get the other going. Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air? I certainly wouldn't expect this to happen in any commercial application, but if you had a slightly broken empty aircraft on the ground in a war zone, could you get it out of the area this way?

I believe the quad jet suggestion could be done legally on a ferry flight with no passengers. Could be wrong though. Other suggestions probably could all be done, so long as there are no passengers on board also, so long as you have enough runway, tire speed limit and braking capability - may need to have near empty fuel tanks for that one. Problem would come with boarding the passengers: I'm not sure on the rules for that. You may need to board them on the side with the fully functional engine, shut down.

Interesting though.


User currently offlineKLASM83 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 5):

That sounds an awful lot like an airstart. Even with earplugs, those are loud procedures.



Don't you want to hang out and waste your life with us?
User currently offlinebj87 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5464 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air?

Technically it is possible but the amount of paperwork that would precede the procedure would be enormous and no passengers would be allowed on board during the procedure.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 7):
Problem would come with boarding the passengers: I'm not sure on the rules for that. You may need to board them on the side with the fully functional engine, shut down.

I remember reading somewhere that it is allowed and sometimes still done when an aircraft lands at a remote airport with an inoperable APU. Passengers board via the side where the engine isn't running.


A little OT

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
Maybe I'm just nostalgic about being able to push start cars in the old days.

I had to push my car down the hill to start it last month. The battery was dead and really needed to be replaced which fixed the problem. Gotta love stick shift cars and living on a hill   Pushing a 2ton Saab down a flat road cannot be fun. Downhill on the other hand is hilarious.


User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5582 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5448 times:

Quoting bj87 (Reply 9):

I had to push my car down the hill to start it last month. The battery was dead and really needed to be replaced which fixed the problem. Gotta love stick shift cars and living on a hill Pushing a 2ton Saab down a flat road cannot be fun. Downhill on the other hand is hilarious.

I had a car with an automatic transmission which could be push-started.

Who, here, can tell me what kind of car, and which transmission, that was?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 4052 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5381 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 2):
In order to manually start the engine, a 3/8" drive extension (24"+ long) on a 'T' handle is inserted into a hole in the cowl and into a receptacle in the start valve. The valve is opened by turning the wrench.

On a CF6, but on an RB211, you have to open the right fan cowl to get a socket on the start valve drive. Then shut the cowl when the engine is running.

On the Trident we used to have a procedure for an inop starter.
A blanking plate was carried on every station. You started an engine, then removed the starter with the engine running and fitted the blanking plate. Not as easy as it might sound! The starter drive was spinning as you took it off, and it was like holding a hot gyroscope in your hands. Then you fitted the good starter on the other engine, and started it normally.
The starter was fitted to the gearbox with four special nuts that were easy to remove, but the whole procedure was prone to failure, and would never be allowed in todays Health and Safety environment.

Also in those days when the APU was inop, ground engine starters were rare on small European airports, so we had a long section of start hose. A relief Trident was flown out, and the hose connected between the two aircraft to use the APU of one aircraft to start the engines of the other.

[Edited 2011-06-06 06:15:50]

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5132 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5337 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
I had a car with an automatic transmission which could be push-started.

Who, here, can tell me what kind of car, and which transmission, that was?

Maybe a late 1970's Honda Civic, with the "Hondamatic" semi-automatic transmission?



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5330 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 5):
What he did I have no clue but i could only guess he was jump starting the engine.

He hooked up a pneumatic cart and then manually operated the start valve.

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 5):
It was scary because if the the engine needed to have the APU start it, I was hoping the engine would shut off in mid flight.

You can do windmill restarts in flight...that's not an option on the ground.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):

I realize this suggestion borders on lunacy, but I wonder if it would work if you used one engine and a fast taxi to get the other going.

I don't think you can taxi fast enough to windmill start any modern engine.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air?

Technically, yes. Legally, no (unless for flight testing).

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
I certainly wouldn't expect this to happen in any commercial application, but if you had a slightly broken empty aircraft on the ground in a war zone, could you get it out of the area this way?

Yes.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 7):
I believe the quad jet suggestion could be done legally on a ferry flight with no passengers. Could be wrong though.

Long thread on the topic: http://ww.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/286524/

Short version is that it's been done in the past and it's technically possible, but the regulators wouldn't approve it today.

Tom.


User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
I had a car with an automatic transmission which could be push-started.

An Alfa Romeo 156 Selespeed would fit the bill, but I don't believe they were that popular in your neck of the woods.

Didn't Volvo / Daf / whoever also have an infinitely variable automatic that was basically a rubber band around a cone? Can't see any reason why that couldn't be push started either. (Variomatic?)

[Edited 2011-06-06 10:12:16]

User currently offlineLowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
realize this suggestion borders on lunacy, but I wonder if it would work if you used one engine and a fast taxi to get the other going.

No. The pressure and volume of air required to to spin the compressor up to a sufficient speed cannot be attained at taxi.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air

Possible in theory. Engine inop ferries are certainly possible on 3 and 4 engine aircraft, but I think the legal issue would arise from departing in an aircraft with a known defect and no remedy in place. A quick check of the MEL's I have handy do not show any relief for starters. I have heard stories of this being done with a Falcon 50, where the crew took off, on 2 started the engine with the inop starter in the air, then came back for the pax, but that would be done under part 91 ops.



Proud OOTSK member
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 669 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
I realize this suggestion borders on lunacy, but I wonder if it would work if you used one engine and a fast taxi to get the other going. Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air? I certainly wouldn't expect this to happen in any commercial application, but if you had a slightly broken empty aircraft on the ground in a war zone, could you get it out of the area this way?

I was at my fathers place yesterday. He told me a story, about his time at De Havilland in the 60's, in the flight test dept. A pilot from a middle eastern airline told them about being at a remote airport and not having enough battery power to start all the engines. So they decided to start the other engines during the takeoff roll, but forgot to energize the ignition and wound up taking off with just two engines running. The plane was a Comet 4.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3063 posts, RR: 28
Reply 17, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
I had a car with an automatic transmission which could be push-started.

1950-73 Chevy with the 2-speed Powerglide transmission?



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3151 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4996 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 17):

1950-73 Chevy with the 2-speed Powerglide transmission?


Been there done that, just push it up to about 20 mph in neutral and drop her into drive with the key on (they did not have column lock back then).
The Powerglide was the only transmission that had a rear pump that did not have an over running clutch.
My newest vehicle has a 6 speed with lock up torque converter, it stays pretty busy. You can hardly imagine how doggy your vehicle was with a transmission that only shifted once when you left a stop sign. Although the Powerglide still very popular in drag racing it has a lot of beefed up parts.
In 56 they changed the shift lever sequence to P-R-N-D-L the in the 55 and previous the sequence was P-N-D-L-R and the Turboglide retained the P-N-D-L-R until its demise in 60 or 61. Many people while trying to accelerate would manually down shift the transmission to low and overdue it and pull the lever down into reverse. The instant deceleration would cause the drivers weight to shift and push down even harder on the accelerator (no seat belts back then) causing all sorts of issues. The funniest one would be watch the passenger to have to wipe his face off the windshield.
OK enough thread drift.

Okie


User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4983 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 7):

I believe the quad jet suggestion could be done legally on a ferry flight with no passengers.

Not legally. Ferry flights require the amount of power plants the aircraft comes with to be operative at takeoff.

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 5):
It was scary because if the the engine needed to have the APU start it, I was hoping the engine would shut off in mid flight.

Pray tell, why???

Quoting aklrno (Reply 6):
I realize this suggestion borders on lunacy, but I wonder if it would work if you used one engine and a fast taxi to get the other going. Or if you had a 4 engine plane could you take off on 3 and start the fourth in the air? I certainly wouldn't expect this to happen in any commercial application, but if you had a slightly broken empty aircraft on the ground in a war zone, could you get it out of the area this way?

Well first you'd have to find someone who doesn't value their certificate at all, because trying that will get it yanked, post haste.

Even if that's not an issue, no it couldn't work. Primary reason? You'd be windmilling your compressor blades with nowhere near enough speed. Ground idle is at an RPM that is significantly higher than the airflow you'd find at all points along a takeoff run. This is evidenced when you can "see" thrust (really heat/ambient temp difference of course...) on an idling or taxing AC. It's also why you experience suction anywhere near the front end of a turbine on the ground to the degree that one would. The exhaust (and correspondingly the blade RPM) velocity coming out the back is a lot faster than what you'd be able to get that plane up to on a runway.

A neat thought experiment to be sure. But I wouldn't bet a hard earned certificate on it...


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4973 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
I had a car with an automatic transmission which could be push-started.

Who, here, can tell me what kind of car, and which transmission, that was?

Looking at my Chilton's Truck repair manual that covers all trucks sold in the USA from 1955 to 1971, just about any Chevy or GMC light truck with an automatic fits the bill on this   You have to get the vehicle going 20-30 MPH depending on the rear end gearing (with the transmission in drive), and turn the ignition on   Wouldn't work on a modern vehicle, though (due to the federally mandated steering column lockout)  



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlinefuelfool From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 5):
It was scary because if the the engine needed to have the APU start it

I worked for a cargo airline that did not have APUs in their DC-8s. Every time a plane left you had to air-start it. During the summer they would only start two engines in gate and then start the others during taxi. Airplanes are air-started all the time. Just an FYI.



I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4737 times:

Quoting lke2fly (Reply 5):
A similar thing happen to me on a AA MD-82 flight from Tennessee to DFW. The right engine started up but fine but the left engine did not. The capt. said that we needed assistance to start the left engine. As I looked out my window I saw the MTC guy drive an APU unit right next to the engine and run some sort of lines into the engine. What he did I have no clue but i could only guess he was jump starting the engine. It was scary because if the the engine needed to have the APU start it, I was hoping the engine would shut off in mid flight. The flight did land safely at DFW..but it was scary.

What you describe is an "air start" and is very common more so than the OP situation. An air start occurs when the APU is inop and it is a common deferral. Since the starts on most airliners are pneumatic they need air to start them. With no APU they have to bring an air start cart or "huffer" to the a/c to put air in the system to start one engine and then they usually push off the gate and cross bleed air from the running engine to start the other engine or engines. What the OP had happen is a bad start valve (also deferrable) but a mechanic has to depending on engine usually puts and 3/8 T handle on the valve and is in communication with the flight deck to tell the mechanic when to open and close the valve.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 19):
believe the quad jet suggestion could be done legally on a ferry flight with no passengers.

Not legally. Ferry flights require the amount of power plants the aircraft comes with to be operative at takeoff.

No it does not..You cannot do what reply 6 suggested take off on 3 and start 4th in the air. But you can special ferry with no passengers a 4 engine aircraft on 3 engines
Quote:

§ 91.611 Authorization for ferry flight with one engine inoperative.
(a) General. The holder of an air carrier operating certificate or an operating certificate issued under part 125 may conduct a ferry flight of a four-engine airplane or a turbine-engine-powered airplane equipped with three engines, with one engine inoperative, to a base for the purpose of repairing that engine subject to the following:

(1) The airplane model has been test flown and found satisfactory for safe flight in accordance with paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, as appropriate. However, each operator who before November 19, 1966, has shown that a model of airplane with an engine inoperative is satisfactory for safe flight by a test flight conducted in accordance with performance data contained in the applicable Airplane Flight Manual under paragraph (a)(2) of this section need not repeat the test flight for that model.

(2) The approved Airplane Flight Manual contains the following performance data and the flight is conducted in accordance with that data:

Although it is not always a good outcome
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/18/us...ines-ends-in-crash-fatal-to-3.html

[Edited 2011-06-07 20:53:08]


NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 285 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4726 times:

I think we should distinguish between an Air Start, and an external Bleed Air Start.

Air Start is using the Ram Air Effect in flight to get the turbine turning, then adding ignition and fuel.

External Bleed Air Start is using the Bleed Air from a Huffer. Engines don't care whether the Bleed Air comes from a Huffer, APU or Cross-bleed Manifold. As long as the correct pressures and temps are there, they can turn.

Nothing dangerous either about external air.

Erich



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (3 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4711 times:

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 23):
I think we should distinguish between an Air Start, and an external Bleed Air Start.

Erich, Here in the US it is common to refer to air start as an external "huffer" engine start and not the ram air in flight start you describe.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
25 Tristarsteve : Same here in Sweden. If the APU is inop, the crew orders an Air Start, and a big truck arrives (that usually doesn't work because it is only used eve
26 fuelfool : And I would say, more than likely, what happened in the OP's incident was an external Bleed Air start.
27 SAAFNAV : Granted, that's understandable to talk about it, IF you already know the procedure and the difference. People talking about taxiing fast enough to Ra
28 aklrno : I was just in a playful mood when I started that discussion. I'm starting to regret it. At least he was behind it. Being in front would be much worse
29 SAAFNAV : Not a bash at you, really. Just so the OP understand it. Have a good day. Erich
30 aklrno : No probem. No offense taken. Just like to stir the pot from time to time.
31 SAAFNAV : In true A.net fashion
32 MrFord : The column lock would disengage when you put the key at on as far as I know, engine running or not. Granted it's not push start, but if you're doing
33 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Air starts are fun Did many a huffer jobs in MCO when I sue to work for DL/OH on the ramp back in my early college summers. The RJs were pretty straig
34 Post contains images HAWK21M : Sure can get screechy.Talking about The loudest noise would be using a Pneumatic Jet starter on a JT8D .
35 FlyASAGuy2005 : I think you'd make the faint at heart run and hide behind the shiny, "quiet", green jet engines!!
36 Mender : I think the BAC 111 starter is MUCH louder than a 737-200 starter.
37 mrskyguy : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the engine start sequence/systems are the same across the 757 and 767. About a year or two ago I was sitting at
38 sccutler : I can confidently tell you that my '61 Impala with a Turboglide had P-R-N-D-Gr ; the "Gr" was "Grade Retarder," the Turboglide's way of allowing you
39 longhauler : Probably because the Captain is responsible for the ship, including the actions of the First Officer ... while the First Officer always has an "out".
40 maddogjt8d : I remember a similar event happening when I was young around 2000 or 2001. We were flying on a TWA 767-200 from JFK-SJU (the ship was N604TW) and I re
Top Of Page
Forum Index

Reply To This Topic Manual Start B767?
Username:
No username? Sign up now!
Password: 


Forgot Password? Be reminded.
Remember me on this computer (uses cookies)
  • Tech/Ops related posts only!
  • Not Tech/Ops related? Use the other forums
  • No adverts of any kind. This includes web pages.
  • No hostile language or criticizing of others.
  • Do not post copyright protected material.
  • Use relevant and describing topics.
  • Check if your post already been discussed.
  • Check your spelling!
  • DETAILED RULES
Add Images Add SmiliesPosting Help

Please check your spelling (press "Check Spelling" above)


Similar topics:More similar topics...
Odd Recommendation For NRT Arr In Training Manual posted Wed Jan 5 2011 18:07:30 by Luftfahrer
737 Airplane Flight Manual posted Wed Oct 27 2010 08:02:45 by smartt1982
OPS - When Did Delta Start CDG? posted Mon Oct 25 2010 10:34:47 by FlyASAGuy2005
B767 Main Gear Question posted Tue Jul 20 2010 21:05:15 by cyxuk
A380 Slide Manual Inflation posted Sun Jul 4 2010 13:09:49 by MarkHKG
The 'Engine Start Procedure' posted Mon Jun 21 2010 03:14:01 by BeakerLTN
Air Charter Start UP Qs posted Sat Jun 5 2010 21:01:14 by JPuentes
Manual Cleaning Of Airplanes, Hourly Rates? posted Fri May 7 2010 09:03:24 by iceblastservice
B1900 Start-Up Sound posted Thu Apr 22 2010 12:42:32 by RyDawg82
787 Flight Manual Already Being Written? posted Wed Apr 21 2010 01:58:58 by faro

Sponsor Message:
Printer friendly format