Bureaucromancer From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 163 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3108 times:
What callsign do Canadian registered aircraft use while operating in the US? Specifically, would the C get dropped as is the case with the N on an American reg, and is the aircraft type included?
HAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2468 posts, RR: 53 Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3049 times:
Assuming the plane is registered something like C-ABCD, the controller would say 'Cessna Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta', or sometimes, 'Canadian Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta'.
HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
rutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 5 Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3015 times:
First ATC contact should surely be FULL serial ID for instance :-
Center (US spelling) this is Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo November, with center (US spelling) reaffirming this call sign back, thereafter continued relays with the same frequency would be truncated to just the first and last two
ie Charlie Bravo November.
Use of Canadian would be inappropriate and wrong.
What i have described is how it works here in Europe where this happens thousands of times a day as light aircraft transit neighbouring countries.
In recent years however many business jet operators have actually employed flight numbers so the likes of Netjets
use a airline type call sign rather than registration.
be77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2972 times:
Near the border there's usually no problem, the reply is automatic "Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo Charlie" but as you get further south in the 48 often get "Canadian Golf, but occasionally when further away I have had (more than once) something like "Canadian ah...Yah the Canadian alphabet soup guy, what was you registration again and say your request".
In Canada you will occasionally hear ATC ask for the numbers again from N registered aircraft - they get the last one or two alpha characters correct but miss the numbers.
I'm always in the VFR world (normally with flight following if possible), so I imagine we're popping in and out of different air space with no notice, and especially once you are more than 100 miles or so from the border it's quite possible to be the only C regististration you hear all day. Same for N's north of the border. So, I imagine it just takes a rsecond to tune it back in if you haven't heard it for a while. Can't see a safety issue, since it's pretty obvoius to everyone who is being asked to do what.
I also imagine the FSS and ATC people on popular routes are more alert and ready for it (eg along the ALCAN highway, across Michagan and Wisconsin between Ontario and OSH, etc.
(Way more interesting was the day there were two of us in the same space with similar idents...ony the F and G different...)
tjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2297 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2772 times:
Quoting be77 (Reply 4): I also imagine the FSS and ATC people on popular routes are more alert and ready for it (eg along the ALCAN highway, across Michagan and Wisconsin between Ontario and OSH, etc.
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 3): Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo November
Here in GRR we get a fair share of Canadian reg a/c passing through and arriving/departing- I've heard local controllers use just the last three letters- IE Alpha Bravo November instead of all five.....
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
be77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2685 times:
Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 5): I've heard local controllers use just the last three letters- IE Alpha Bravo November instead of all five.....
That sounds about right - in Canada the norm is that the 'C' isn't used at all and you call up with the last 4 letters, but since the second letter is always F, G, or I, that gets dropped right away by ATC as long as it's still clear who's who. So, by your second radio call you're using the last 3 letters.
In fact, if it's busy, the F or G sometimes gets forgotten, and later on you might get asked if you are a Fox or a Golf with no reference to VW and/or Audi. ('I' is ultralight, so not frequently in busy controlled airspace and likely not to get confused with F or G just by type).
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19725 posts, RR: 56 Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2617 times:
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 3): Center (US spelling) this is Charlie Golf Alpha Bravo November, with center (US spelling) reaffirming this call sign back, thereafter continued relays with the same frequency would be truncated to just the first and last two
ie Charlie Bravo November.
In the US, abbreviations are with the last three letters, not the first one and last two. So C-FDSC would be "Cessna Delta Sierra Charlie".
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 3): Use of Canadian would be inappropriate and wrong.
Happens quite a lot, though.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5221 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2554 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 7): In the US, abbreviations are with the last three letters, not the first one and last two. So C-FDSC would be "Cessna Delta Sierra Charlie".
Actually "Charlie Serria Charlie" is the correct ICAO format for an aircraft engaged in international civil aviation. I have heard an Australian registered aircraft use format this in the USA, eg VH-CMC would be Victor Mike Charlie (after first contact). Not to say some people don't do it differently to the rules.
cbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1508 posts, RR: 6 Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2519 times:
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 3): Use of Canadian would be inappropriate and wrong.
So is half of the "slang" we use over here, but we still manage ok
Quoting gemuser (Reply 8):
Actually "Charlie Serria Charlie" is the correct ICAO format for an aircraft engaged in international civil aviation. I have heard an Australian registered aircraft use format this in the USA, eg VH-CMC would be Victor Mike Charlie (after first contact). Not to say some people don't do it differently to the rules.
You know, now that you mention it, I have heard a few Mexican registrations by this format, like X-ray Alpha India!
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2240 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2225 times:
Quoting HAL (Reply 1): Assuming the plane is registered something like C-ABCD, the controller would say 'Cessna Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta', or sometimes, 'Canadian Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta'.
"Cessna" is not the phonetic representation of "C".
On initial contact, the callsign would be "Charlie Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta". They controller might then shorten it to "Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta" for subsequent communications.
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2218 times:
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 11): "Cessna" is not the phonetic representation of "C".
... but it's the aircraft type!
According to FAA 7110:
b. Foreign registry. State one of the following:
1. Civil. State the aircraft type or the manufacturer's
name followed by the letters/numbers of the
aircraft registration, or state the letters or digits of the
aircraft registration or call sign.
EXAMPLE-
“Stationair F-L-R-B.”
“C-F-L-R-B.”
Then also, a general rule on abbreviations:
Transmissions may be abbreviated as follows:
a. Use the identification prefix and the last 3 digits
or letters of the aircraft identification after
communications have been established.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5936 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2189 times:
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 9): You know, now that you mention it, I have heard a few Mexican registrations by this format, like X-ray Alpha India!
Good to know!
...and I have heard them call themselves on the air, in US airspace, "Twin Cessna Equis Alpha Bravo" (Equis is Spanish for the letter "X"). Sometimes, down in ELP, the controllers even respond to them on the air using Equis... What I have noted with Mexican aircraft operating in US airspace is that they call in on frequency with the full call sign initiatially (e.g. "Twin Cessna X-Ray Bravo Charlie Alpha Bravo") and then shorten the callsign after the controller responds to the initial call. The controller afterwards uses whatever abbreviated callsign the aircraft uses when they responded with the shortened callsign.
Down in Mexico, flying a U.S. registered aircraft, you call in as, for example "Cessna November two eight zero niner Quebec"). Mexican ATC will abbreviate your callsign, although I have been called "Noviembre Cero Niner Quebec" down there Sometimes their Mexican accent in English is so thick they are really hard to read...and everyone else on frequency is usually using Spanish (except us foreign aircraft...they will talk Spanish to you if you start responding to ATC in Spanish. Not recommended unless you are really profecient in Spanish techincal aviation terms...).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2150 times:
Quoting gemuser (Reply 8): Actually "Charlie Serria Charlie" is the correct ICAO format for an aircraft engaged in international civil aviation. I have heard an Australian registered aircraft use format this in the USA, eg VH-CMC would be Victor Mike Charlie (after first contact). Not to say some people don't do it differently to the rules.
It mght be the correct ICAO format, but it is not what the FAA book says (see my post above), even though some ATC folks might use that format in the US. The ICAO format makes sense of course, and that's what the rest of the world uses... surprize!
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2240 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1914 times:
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1890 times:
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 15): Where in the original post does it say the aircraft was a Cessna?
It's didn't. It didn't say that the registration was C-ABCD either, those were just examples.
Since HAL said:
Quoting HAL (Reply 1): 'Cessna Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta',
He obviously didn't confuse 'Cessna' With the phonetic for 'C', otherwise he wouldn't have said "Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta" after it!
Exactly as my example right out of the FAA handbook:
“Stationair F-L-R-B.”
Replace "Stationair" with "Cessna".
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
tower From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1872 times:
We occationally get a Canadian aircraft at my airport. And anytime we do, how I handle it is using the full callsign everytime. Such as C-FLN I say "Charlie Foxtrot Lima November" anytime I issue control instructions. From what I can tell, it seems to be how majority of the controllers at my facility do the same.
Edit: Same goes for when I have a GA aircraft that is registered with a N number, sometimes i'll say November One Two Three Four. Then after initial contact i'll use November Two Three Four. This of course is if i'm not familiar with the aircraft type such as experimental.
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1865 times:
Quoting tower (Reply 17): using the full callsign everytime. Such as C-FLN I say "Charlie Foxtrot Lima November"
But that isn't the full callsign
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
tower From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 107 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1798 times:
Quoting bond007 (Reply 18): But that isn't the full callsign
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What I have noted with Mexican aircraft operating in US airspace is that they call in on frequency with the full call sign initiatially (e.g. "Twin Cessna X-Ray Bravo Charlie Alpha Bravo") and then shorten the callsign after the controller responds to the initial call. The controller afterwards uses whatever abbreviated callsign the aircraft uses when they responded with the shortened callsign.
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