dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 716 posts, RR: 1 Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3747 times:
Is it true that AA still fuels their own planes? Because it seems like everywhere I have been Swissport, Servisair, and/or the FBO are handling fuel for the entire airport. Is it more cost effective to the airline to have an outside company do it or have a staff on the payroll to do it.
I can see why a outside company is effective because the airline does not have to pay the fueler a salary or give them benefits. But the airline still has to pay a service charge to the contract company that handles fuel to pay for their services, correct? I am just trying to wrap my mind around this.
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
Starlionblue From Hong Kong, joined Feb 2004, 15904 posts, RR: 66 Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3650 times:
Like any other decision to outsource or not, it depends!
Sure, the airline doesn't pay the fueler a salary or benefits directly if the service is outsourced, but they sure as heck are paying those things indirectly. Now, if an airline only has a tiny fraction of the traffic at an airport, I can see why they would buy the service. If you're in DFW and AA owns 102.8% of the traffic, perhaps owning the fueling operation is a good idea.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - from Citadel by John Ringo
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3484 times:
If the airline feels that it can fuel its own aircraft more efficiently and more inexpensively than outsourcing to another entity, why not?
Some will even suggest that even if it's a little more expensive, it is better to retain control of the operation within the organization.
An airline with a large presence at an airport may even act as the contractor for other airlines.
Quite simple, it's largely an economies of scale and scope issue.
runner13 From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 228 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3427 times:
If I remember correctly I think AA outsources their fueling at DFW. At BNA I know for a fact they still fuel their own planes also Eagle. Not sure of anywhere else.
shamrock137 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3394 times:
For some airlines having their own fueling operation is easier. Cape Air has their own fuel trucks at many of their stations because 100LL is hard to get at major airports, and they sometimes have planes that are turned in under 15 min. This would be impossible as usually the only other source of fuel would be an FBO, which are rarely located near passenger terminals.
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 716 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3089 times:
I believe Great Lakes does their own fueling in DEN. Is that because they use AVGAS in their fleet???
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19813 posts, RR: 56 Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3053 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 5): I believe Great Lakes does their own fueling in DEN. Is that because they use AVGAS in their fleet???
What planes do they have that use avgas? Not the 1900s, not the EMB-120s.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
ASIG fuels AA at IND. None of the fuelers at IND are company employees, including FX. A couple of the airlines spray their own planes in the winter, but most are contracted out.
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9292 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2926 times:
There is a lot to running your own fueling program. It's not just hooking up the truck and moving fuel. Cost wise and liability wise much smarter and cheaper to outsource.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2883 times:
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9): There is a lot to running your own fueling program. It's not just hooking up the truck and moving fuel. Cost wise and liability wise much smarter and cheaper to outsource.
That's an over-generalization. The fact that some airlines continue to operate their own fueling operations indicate that there are some efficiencies to doing so.
dlramp4life From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 716 posts, RR: 1 Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2815 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 6): What planes do they have that use avgas? Not the 1900s, not the EMB-120s.
-Mir
My bad, thought they their fleet used AVGAS. I have never really been around commerical prop planes or know much about them
Worked/Planned Loads on: CRJ-2,CRJ-7,CRJ-9,737-4,737-7,737-8,757-2,757-3,767-3,A319,A320,A330,MD83,MD90
fuelfool From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 135 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2751 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10): That's an over-generalization. The fact that some airlines continue to operate their own fueling operations indicate that there are some efficiencies to doing so.
Even if the airline fuels does their own in-to-plane, part of the operation is probably outsourced through a consortium of the airlines at the airport. If it is at an airport that has a hydrant system, part of it has to be, because of the infrastructure needed. I would guess a place like DFW is hydrant, if it is not, I would hate to see the madness. I have worked both sides of it, and both have pros and cons. The chance that a airline owns the tanks, pumps, piping, filtration system, loading bays, trucks and has the manning to fuel and maintain, is not likely.
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2745 times:
Quoting fuelfool (Reply 13): The chance that a airline owns the tanks, pumps, piping, filtration system, loading bays, trucks and has the manning to fuel and maintain, is not likely.
Try 5X at SDF. I'm pretty sure they own everything on the property except the intake pipe.
fuelfool From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 135 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2708 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14): Try 5X at SDF. I'm pretty sure they own everything on the property except the intake pipe.
So the passenger airlines are fueled by UPS workers? FX contracts out storage at MEM, from what I have been told. There is a huge difference between isolating a freight hub and separating gates on a concourse/terminal. As far as air freight is concerned, there was a time when Airborne Express owned their own airport.
[Edited 2011-07-04 03:28:19]
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9292 posts, RR: 12 Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2696 times:
As the Fueling Supervisor where I work there is a lot that goes on that people don't know about. Daily checks, Monthly check, Quarterly checks, Semi Annual checks and Yearly checks. Up keep of the system and trucks. Training of the staff, Envriomental concerns. Liability...It's MUCH easier to pick up the phone and tell your fuel vendor that the in bound at gate A10 needs 10K pounds and leave the hassels to them.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19813 posts, RR: 56 Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2690 times:
Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 12): I have never really been around commerical prop planes or know much about them
Basically, if it's a turboprop, it's going to burn jet fuel (since that's what a turboprop is - a jet engine that turns a propeller instead of shooting air out the back). Piston engines burn avgas (except for those that are modified to run on jet fuel, but there aren't many of those out there).
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2658 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 17): Basically, if it's a turboprop, it's going to burn jet fuel (since that's what a turboprop is - a jet engine that turns a propeller instead of shooting air out the back).
In theory, any jet will run happily on avgas. There's just no reason to do so. Other than having to potentially tweak the start parameters a little bit, the engine wouldn't care much in the short term. In the long term it avgas might cause issues for some of the components that use fuel as a working fluid (actuators and such) but that's sort of a peripheral issue.
The converse is not true...an engine built for avgas won't work on jet fuel without serious modification.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2542 times:
Quoting fuelfool (Reply 15): So the passenger airlines are fueled by UPS workers? FX contracts out storage at MEM, from what I have been told.
Never said that. 5X handles all the fuel for itself.
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16): It's MUCH easier to pick up the phone
But, if the infra-structure is there and you've got a large enough operation to justify it, it becomes a cost and reliability issue.
HAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31228 posts, RR: 58 Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2512 times:
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 11): He's exaggerating to make a point. I mean, c'mon, we all know American only actually has 99.7% of the airline ops at DFW.
I guess it dropped to 99.5% yesterday
Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
As the Fueling Supervisor where I work there is a lot that goes on that people don't know about. Daily checks, Monthly check, Quarterly checks, Semi Annual checks and Yearly checks. Up keep of the system and trucks. Training of the staff, Envriomental concerns. Liability...
true....Running a refuelling company in Aviation necessatites certain norms & regulations to be satisfied including checks on the equipment in use.This is monitored by the regulatory authority.
fuelfool From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 135 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2422 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19): Never said that. 5X handles all the fuel for itself.
Comparing a freight hub to a passenger terminal is apples to oranges. At MEM and SDF, the passenger ITP is more than likely not done by the airline itself. The maintenance and operation is definitely not done by the passenger airlines. Who does ITP for DL in ATL?
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2414 times:
Quoting fuelfool (Reply 21): Comparing a freight hub to a passenger terminal is apples to oranges.
Why? An airline is an airline. There's no difference between 5X at SDF and AA at DFW (assuming they do there own fuel).
I'm not implying that 5X does anyone's fuel but there own. I don't know what DL does at ATL nor what AA does at DFW.
When the economies of scale is there and the airline is willing to take on the responsibility, why wouldn't they take on their own fueling. I know what's involved. I've done QC on the fuel farm and am well aware of the audit and record keeping requirements involved.
fuelfool From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 135 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2349 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22): Why? An airline is an airline. There's no difference between 5X at SDF and AA at DFW (assuming they do there own fuel).
There is a difference. Unless AA has separate tanks and piping, the same lines from the tanks are feeding the whole terminal. Therefore, you have fuel going to Gate A that is an AA flight and then Gate B that is a Delta flight. When that fuel leaves the tank, you don't know which gate it is going to, unless there are separate hydrant systems for the different gates/concourses. 5X does not share their gates with FX, GB or whoever, unless it is a feeder flight. 5X is on a dedicated ramp, AA is not.
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning...Smells like victory!
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2277 times:
Assuming a hydrant sysstem is in use at DFW, then yes, there is a difference, but a small one. But, at DFW, whose employees pump the fuel for AA?
I know when I worked the 5X ramp at DFW, it was a fuel contractor (don't recall who), but at SDF, it is a 5X employee, pumping from a 5X owned truck, that was filled from a 5X tank.
Who owns the fuel network at DFW? I assume it's DFW.
Let me add my own definition or parameter (for clarification) of "fueling their own planes":
-If an operator's employee fuels the aircraft using the operator's delivery device, then I consider that operator to be fueling their own aircraft. I believe that 5X, at SDF, goes beyond that definition since they own many of the fixed assets (tanks, delivery bays, fixtures, etc) in the fueling operation.
So, using that definition, does AA fuel their own aircraft at DFW? DL at ATL or CVG?
HermansCVR580 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 494 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2174 times:
Allied Aviation fuels AA at DFW. AA fuels their own aircraft meaning they have their own equipment and the planes are fueled by their employees at Tulsa, and O'hare, and they may still do their own fueling at San Diego and LAX but those two cities I'm not sure of they may have been taken over by a contractor like ASIG at LAX. At LAX the fuel pipe lines and tanks are run by ASIG but owned by the airlines under a consortium called LAX Fuels.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
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