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Which A32X Operators Use Containers?  
User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

My first time starting a new thread, so I hope everything is compliant. My somewhat brief search did not reveal a discussion on this topic, so feel free to redirect me if necessary.

I'm looking to find out which operators of A32X family use the LD-45 containers for luggage/freight loading, and which don't.

I know some airlines that have decided to use them, such as NZ, operate certain services without them, so I am interested in airlines whose policy is to never use containers on the 32x family, and if they've given reasons for their decision for or against the ULDs.

Also interested if any new A320 operators (such as new operators ordering the NEO) will use containers, though I doubt that information would be available yet.


Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3471 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

BA definitely use containers on their A320 series planes, I believe that T5 is entirely set up for containerised baggage. nopt sure though if they use them when any A319's are based at LGW

User currently offlineFuling From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3826 times:

I saw the title of this thread, and NZ came straight to my mind, but you have said that above. I have however seen the LD-45 containers for JQ being loaded/unloaded at DRW airport from the domestic ports CNS, BNE, SYD, MEL, ADL and also international ports SIN, DPS and MNL.

User currently offlineaa777lvr From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 199 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

I know that JQ/JetStar uses them in Oz. My wife and I flew SYD-OOL last year and I was very impressed at how quickly they could turn the A320.

AA777LVR


User currently onlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3731 times:
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Most of the mainline EU carriers uses containers.  

[Edited 2011-07-24 06:18:36]


Flying high and low
User currently offlineCentre From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3663 times:

Air Canada


Centre



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlinejetskipper From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Second question: Why do they use them? Doesn't the weight of the containers as well as the roller and lock system requires to load and secure them in the cargo bay add a significant and unnecessary amount of weight? I can't imagine the time saved in loading an unloading offsets the weight penalty.

User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3479 times:
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Air France on some routes (I've actually seen them used on CDG-LHR).

User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3391 times:

Quoting jetskipper (Reply 6):
Second question: Why do they use them? Doesn't the weight of the containers as well as the roller and lock system requires to load and secure them in the cargo bay add a significant and unnecessary amount of weight? I can't imagine the time saved in loading an unloading offsets the weight penalty.

Now I know that AC has LD3-45s (AKG) that have sides made of Lexan, which cuts down on the weight I remember seeing them years ago back when AC was still flying the Airbus to ATL. Do any other airlines use this version as opposed to the standard can that is entirely made of metal?

The savings may be more along the lines of less on the job injuries, lost manpower due to on the job injuries, and less expenses paid out to cover such injuries. I know if I had the option, I'd rather deal with cans instead of hand loading.

Wouldn't there be some time savings during the turnaround in calculating weight and balance? Instead of the agents on the ramp having to keep track of how many bags they've put on, wouldn't you'd just use the standard calculation for that type of container?


User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1965 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3314 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 5):

AC has them on all 321s, 320s and I believe some 319s. Some of their 319s do not have it though to save on weight. They originally planed to fly YVR-YHZ direct with them and needed to go as light as they could.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3314 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 8):
The savings may be more along the lines of less on the job injuries, lost manpower due to on the job injuries, and less expenses paid out to cover such injuries. I know if I had the option, I'd rather deal with cans instead of hand loading.

Wouldn't there be some time savings during the turnaround in calculating weight and balance? Instead of the agents on the ramp having to keep track of how many bags they've put on, wouldn't you'd just use the standard calculation for that type of container?

I know here in the US, it's easier bulk loading, because you get a lot of large (oversized) bags which take up space in the can. Even if the Bus takes AKE's (LD3's) you still lose room on the back end. So it negates the can's effectiveness, and you lose room. Hence the palletizing of bags (ie: BOM; DEL; TLV) on widebodies. You also have a larger bulk pit or bin in the rear of a widebody to put loose odd shaped items and last minute bags in. Plus you can get more onboard like golf bags; PAD's; COMAT; freight; and the like. Plus the major US airlines use hand held computers (scanners) on the ramp which links up with load planning and the cockpit so you know what to put on. No more old school W/B calculations. The advantage is you can at least load standing up on a 32X, than a 73 or 75. At least if you have a Telair on board (on the 737 &757), it makes loading a whole lot easier.......unless it is busted. BTW: Do they make a Telair for the 32X family? I've never seen one for it yet.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1661 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

LX uses them on all 32X
LH on the 320/321 but AFAIK not on the 319

I'm happy with them, more cargo flexibility with max container weight being 1134kgs incl AKH/PKC container.
Bulkload max 150kgs / pc.



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlinebwaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2004, 689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

bmi on short haul A320's. All mid haul (ex-BMed) A320/1 and all short haul A319 are bulk loaded

User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Oh yeah, one other thing.
We have a lot of connecting flights, so they would have to download the can and break it up planeside so the runners can meet their connectors. At least when bulkloading, mainly connectors are in one pit (or bin) and the runners can separate their hot and cold bags on the download instead of breaking up a can. You may have about 50 or 60 connectors going different places. Not including the interline connectors too. But mainly the mainline to regional connectors would be a problem.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3372 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Thread starter):
and which don't.

No US-based carriers that I can think of use them (DL,UA/CO, US, NK, F9,etc)...



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineFlySSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7379 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
Air France on some routes (I've actually seen them used on CDG-LHR).

AF is using containers on the A320 & A321 but not on the A318 & A319


User currently offlineRJLover From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting Centre (Reply 5):
Air Canada

Only on the 320/321.

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 9):
AC has them on all 321s, 320s and I believe some 319s. Some of their 319s do not have it though to save on weight. They originally planed to fly YVR-YHZ direct with them and needed to go as light as they could

AFAIK, not a single 319 is equiped for cans, they are all bulk loaded.

There are several 320's that are bulk loaded, but only at certain times of the year... The Jetz aircraft (320's, FINs 401-405) are all bulk loaded while they are in Jetz service. Right now, they're in standard revenue service and are loaded using cans. What I do not know is whether the can loading system is covered over or physically removed from the aircraft for the "Jetz season".



Last Flight(s): YHZ-YYZ-YVR // YVR-YYJ // YYJ-YYZ-YUL-YHZ.....Next Flight(s):
User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 600 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2941 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 7):
Air France on some routes (I've actually seen them used on CDG-LHR).

AF uses containers as well, except on A318/A319. Looks like FlySSC beat be to it  



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2684 times:

It really boils down to ground handling labor cost.

In my experience air carriers that opt for ULDs do so primarily on project labor staffing cost. ULD A320 can be turned quicker with less staffing then a bulk load version.
Also for some carriers the ability to nicely segregate baggage, especially transfer connections is an additional positive factor.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecontrails15 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2665 times:

Boy do I wish our 320 fleet was containerized. I was on a AMS-CDG flight on a 320 that had containers and I just saw a pic on Anet of a Alitalia 320 or 321 which was containerized.


Giants football!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
User currently offlinetristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3930 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
It really boils down to ground handling labor cost.

     

I think its all down to cost. In Northern Europe labour is expensive. We save money using containers.
In places where the loaders are on minimum wage, then it is cheaper to employ more loaders, and not use
containers.
All the BA A32X (except the A318) are containerised. But, we can load a couple of pallets into each hold, put up the nets and bulk load them. When the A319 were delivered they were like this.

But containers make the turnround much smoother, especially when its snowing. You can leave the containers on their dollies until 10 mins B4 dep, and sort the last bags out.


User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 14):
No US-based carriers that I can think of use them (DL,UA/CO, US, NK, F9,etc)...

I had guessed the split would fall somewhat in the category of LCCs vs network/legacy. I knew they were unpopular in the States, but hadn't realised that not a single American carrier employed them. Thanks for your reply.

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 3):
I know that JQ/JetStar uses them in Oz. My wife and I flew SYD-OOL last year and I was very impressed at how quickly they could turn the A320

Thanks for the post - I actually witnessed a JQ 320 being turned around at ZQN last week, seemed very efficiently done.



Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
In my experience air carriers that opt for ULDs do so primarily on project labor staffing cost. ULD A320 can be turned quicker with less staffing then a bulk load version.
Also for some carriers the ability to nicely segregate baggage, especially transfer connections is an additional positive factor.

How many people does it take to load a containerized aircraft? We bulk load A321s with 3 to 4 people usually, or 6 if it's a heavy flight (2 people in each bin, 1 at the bottom of each beltloader). Also, how do containers work with lots of connecting bags? Do the runners break open the containers as they're offloaded on the ramp or do they usually go to a carousel? It seems like the former would require a lot of ramp space, while the latter would require longer connecting times.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24312 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

Quoting wn676 (Reply 22):
How many people does it take to load a containerized aircraft?

As little as 2. One up on the loader, and second person driving the dollies.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 22):
Do the runners break open the containers as they're offloaded on the ramp or do they usually go to a carousel?

In Europe thing like ramp transfer is really unknown thing. Bags go to the bagroom and dumped back into the baggage sorting system for their onwards flights. Many airports have fantastic consolidated sorting and bagrooms so it works very well. Also there are security requirements employed by many places that require rescreening anyhow.

On the outbound completed and closed up ULDs get delivered ramp side and loaded.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineT5towbar From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 508 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 21):
I had guessed the split would fall somewhat in the category of LCCs vs network/legacy. I knew they were unpopular in the States, but hadn't realised that not a single American carrier employed them. Thanks for your reply.

Yeah. We don't use them here. 2 factors: 1 the RJ's. 2 the transfer process.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 22):
Also, how do containers work with lots of connecting bags? Do the runners break open the containers as they're offloaded on the ramp or do they usually go to a carousel? It seems like the former would require a lot of ramp space, while the latter would require longer connecting times.

On a widebody, that's a simple process. Cans are dedicated by: A. Local Bags B. Priority Bags C. Interline Bags
You have a lot more room to organize. I don't know how you do that on a 320 - 321.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
As little as 2. One up on the loader, and second person driving the dollies.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
How many people does it take to load a containerized aircraft?

As little as 2. One up on the loader, and second person driving the dollies.

Correct. Easy work unless you have warped edges or warped pallets......a whole lot of fun trying to lock them.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
In Europe thing like ramp transfer is really unknown thing. Bags go to the bagroom and dumped back into the baggage sorting system for their onwards flights. Many airports have fantastic consolidated sorting and bagrooms so it works very well. Also there are security requirements employed by many places that require rescreening anyhow.

On the outbound completed and closed up ULDs get delivered ramp side and loaded.

Well here in the US, since most cans are on international flights, all bags go to the dump area (inbounds) where the bags are screened and cleared by US Customs. If there are any connecting or interline bags, they will be sent to a recheck area where the bags are then transfered to different airlines or cities. If the flights are local (ex: EWR - IAH, a repo flight), transfer cans (heading international) dumped and screened then sent to the bagroom for reloading (while the domestic cans are dumped inbounds to the carousels)

Ramp transfer is the reason we don't use cans on a narrowbody. It's really not practical where frequency rules. Plus the RJ factor where you would have to break up a can anyway. On a 737 or 757, with a Telair, one man can load the aircraft.



A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
25 joelyboy911 : So if we were to list (Including some that I already knew): Yes/Majority: JQ, NZ, AC, LH, BA, AF, LX, EI Partial: BD No: US, UA, VX, DL, NK, F9
26 T5towbar : I mean one man in the pit; 1 on the ground.
27 clydenairways : IB use them too... . . .
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