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Steering An Airliner  
User currently offlinelke2fly From United States of America, joined May 2011, 70 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4841 times:
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My question is while a airliner heads down the runway at full speed before take off at what point does the rudders take over the tiller for control of the airplane in steering straight? Like wise on landing. Thank you

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21091 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4832 times:

The tiller isn't used at all once the airplane is lined up with the runway for takeoff - the rudder pedals offer enough nose wheel control (and, at higher speeds, rudder control) to keep it on centerline. Same thing during landing, until you're slowed down and ready to turn off the runway - then you start using the tiller.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9378 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4824 times:

The nose wheel has about eight degrees of travel with using the rudder pedals. This keeps the airplane in line until rudder authority takes over. The transition is at about 60 knots. However there is no hard transition point so it depends on weight and balance and runway friction.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

On the 747 the rudder pedals have no effect on nosewheel steering; therefore we are instructed to use the tiller up until 30 knots groundspeed; beyond that only the rudder should be used.

User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4706 times:

Correction to the above post, the pedals do provide 7 degrees of steering on the 747.

User currently offlinewn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4695 times:

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 4):


Correction to the above post, the pedals do provide 7 degrees of steering on the 747.

Just for the nosegear or also for the steerable mains as well?


User currently offlineLimaFoxTango From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Jun 2004, 771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4346 times:

The Dash 8 rudder pedals gives 7 degrees of nose-wheel steering.


You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 6):

Just for the nosegear.

What I was trying to say in my original post was that the rudder doesn't give you additional steering over what the tiller provides; for example in some planes the rudder pedals give you 7 and the tiller gives you an additional 70 for a total of 77. That's not the case on the on the 747. Anyway, body gear steering only kicks in when when the nosegear is deflected more than 20 degrees, so the rudder pedals alone won't trigger it.


User currently offlineB747FE From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2004, 230 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 4):
KAUSpilot

Actually both of your posts are correct. Many 747 classic didn't have rudder pedal steering.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 5):
Just for the nosegear or also for the steerable mains as well?

Only for the nose wheels.
Steering on the body gear is armed when the nose wheels are turned more than 20 degrees.
And it's not active nor intended to use during take off.

Quoting lke2fly (Thread starter):
lke2fly

Light pressure on the control column + rudder pedal steering is used at the beginning of the take off roll. Rudder becomes effective above 40 to 60 knots. Until then, the captain always keep left hand on the tiller.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
However there is no hard transition point so it depends on weight and balance and runway friction.

  

Regards,
B747FE.



"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Just related......
On a B777.....Does mvmt of the Tiller move the MLG in addition to the NLG steering or is it only the NLG that is steered.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineSAAFNAV From South Africa, joined Mar 2010, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4218 times:

On the C-130 there isn't a link between the nose gear and the rudder pedals.

During the Take-Off Run, the Pilot has the rudders, tiller and throttles, while the Co-pilot has the yoke.

Pilot will open the throttles, using the tiller to keep on center-line, until the rudder becomes effective. Not sure, but I think its at about ~50Kts.
Co-Pilot is keeping the wings level, countering for crosswind as needed.

At 80Kts, the Co will call out 80Kts, Pilot moves his hand over to the yoke, and it becomes his aircraft.
This is practiced excessively in the sim.

Landing is the opposite..
But, it becomes hairy when the co-pilot is landing, as he has to transfer control to the pilot. Unfortunately, some stop flying as soon as the they cross the runway, leaving the pilot with a heck of a workload to go straight.

Erich



On-board Direction Consultant
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4200 times:

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 10):
But, it becomes hairy when the co-pilot is landing, as he has to transfer control to the pilot. Unfortunately, some stop flying as soon as the they cross the runway, leaving the pilot with a heck of a workload to go straight.

The DC-9 and MD-80 only have a tiller on the Captain's side, so you have the same handover if the first officer is PF. Same on many aircraft.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4057 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):

737 also has Captain's side tiller. F/O tiller is optional.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
On a B777.....Does mvmt of the Tiller move the MLG in addition to the NLG steering or is it only the NLG that is steered.

MLG steering comes from NLG steering commands, but you have to move the NLG far enough to get it gong. Rudder pedal commands don't move the NLG far enough to get the MLG going, and even smaller tiller inputs won't get the MLG going.

Tom.


User currently offlineLimaFoxTango From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Jun 2004, 771 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 7):

What I was trying to say in my original post was that the rudder doesn't give you additional steering over what the tiller provides; for example in some planes the rudder pedals give you 7 and the tiller gives you an additional 70 for a total of 77. That's not the case on the on the 747. Anyway, body gear steering only kicks in when when the nosegear is deflected more than 20 degrees, so the rudder pedals alone won't trigger it.


Wasn't doubting you. I was referring to the DHC8 100-400 not, 747-8.



You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 14):

No worries, I actually meant to include wn700driver in the quote for my second post since he had asked about body gear steering, hit the wrong button, doh!


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3834 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 13):
MLG steering comes from NLG steering commands, but you have to move the NLG far enough to get it gong.

How exactly does the MLG steer.....Is it sensed by the directional variation of the Aircraft.....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently onlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1763 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3817 times:

Is differential braking used at all?


Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16908 posts, RR: 67
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 13):
MLG steering comes from NLG steering commands, but you have to move the NLG far enough to get it gong.

How exactly does the MLG steer.....Is it sensed by the directional variation of the Aircraft.....

The mains on the 747 (two bogies only) and 777 (rearmost axles only) steer automatically (unless the function is locked out) once the tiller is deflected beyond a certain amount of degrees. Transparent for the pilots.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineB747FE From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2004, 230 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 17):
Is differential braking used at all?

Sometimes, on very slippery surfaces.

Regards,
B747FE.



"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):

The mains on the 747 (two bogies only) and 777 (rearmost axles only) steer automatically (unless the function is locked out) once the tiller is deflected beyond a certain amount of degrees.

But whats the principle of operation like......How does the rear axle deflect,by what signal...the tiller or the turn mechanically.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3408 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):

On the 744 the nosewheel and body gear steering are all hydraulic, the gear are turned hydraulically by hydraulic system #1. The movement of the body gear is initiated only after the nose gear exceed 20 degrees of deflection from center.

Copied and Pasted from the 744 manual:

Quoting Boeing:
Body gear steering operates when the nose wheel steering angle exceeds 20
degrees. This reduces tire scrubbing and lets the airplane turn in a minimum radius.
Body gear steering is activated when ground speed decreases through 15 knots.
As speed increases through 20 knots, the body gear is hydraulically centered and
body gear steering is deactivated.


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3234 times:

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 21):
The movement of the body gear is initiated only after the nose gear exceed 20 degrees of deflection from center.

Thanks....Exactly what I wanted to know....



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinelke2fly From United States of America, joined May 2011, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2786 times:
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Thank you to all of for educating me on how the rudder and tiller function together on take off and landing.

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