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Why Not Much Interest From Airlines In HGS?  
User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6035 times:

I think the HGS system introduced by Boeing, is an amazing feature that enhance safety and pilot confidence.

Why not more interest in the system from 737NG owners like KLM and the likes?

Also is the system offered in the larger aircraft? I mean why no HGS in the 748i?

Is this pilot pride... Or?

Thanks!
Boaz


"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1612 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6027 times:

Forgive my ignorance, but what does HGC exactly entail?


Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6021 times:

Sorry HGS is the airliner version of head up displays(HUD in military terms).

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5974 times:

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" i suppose ...

Airlines are carefully looking at what they spend, especially in these times. In the end it's probably nice to have but not very essential hence i wouldn't expect an overwhelming response to it.



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineYokoTsuno From Singapore, joined Feb 2011, 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5949 times:

Are reaction times so critical for an airline pilot? I guess you have to ask a pilot, but I assume that, if the benefits, in this case the gain in pilot reaction time because of the improved ergonomics, do not have a noticeable impact on the safety, it is not worth the investment.

I once got a rental car with an overhead display that had speed, navigation, and some other information in the windshield. Although a cool thing to boast about to you friends, I failed to see the added value, at least for a car. Since navigation can also be communicated by voice, car speed can be gauged, and all other stuff is seems obsolete, how exactly does this add anything to safety, assuming that is the intention of it all?


User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5949 times:

So who has it? In 1989, Alaska Airlines started installing HGS and currently has it in their entire fleet of 737's.

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User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9032 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5916 times:
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Quoting windshear (Thread starter):

I never missed it. I guess it is not used too many times. Flying with the normal instruments is just fine for me. I never tried it with a HUG as all the planes I have flown simply don't have it.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3073 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5881 times:

Lots of airlines and airplanes have a HUD. It's optional on the 737 and many major customers have it including WN, AS, AA and DL among others. Two HUDs are standard on all 787s, and I'm sure all future new designs. I guess I'm missing the point of the thread.

User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 5783 times:

As a future commercial pilot, I wouldn't want one to be honest. As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything (okay, in a commercial airliner more is going on) but do you really need the speed, altitude, heading etc right in front of your head? I can't think of any accident where a HUD would have caused the accident to be avoided

User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 5692 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
As a future commercial pilot, I wouldn't want one to be honest. As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything (okay, in a commercial airliner more is going on) but do you really need the speed, altitude, heading etc right in front of your head? I can't think of any accident where a HUD would have caused the accident to be avoided

The HGS allows for CAT IIIa approach minimums without having an autoland system. It can also get you lower takeoff minimums on some runways.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinePHLapproach From Philippines, joined Mar 2004, 1243 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

Last 2 DL 738 Crews I flew up front with. Capt used it for at least one phase during both flights. First time guy used it for Dep out of ATL in VMC. 2nd guy last Friday used it for Dep out of PHL, had it down the whole cruise (probably cause he clipped the sun shade for the HGS to it and used it to tone down the sun as it was blinding us straight on the whole flight) then used it for a visual to 27L at ATL. I wish I could get a better view of it on the way down.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5634 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 9):
Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
As a future commercial pilot, I wouldn't want one to be honest. As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything (okay, in a commercial airliner more is going on) but do you really need the speed, altitude, heading etc right in front of your head? I can't think of any accident where a HUD would have caused the accident to be avoided

The HGS allows for CAT IIIa approach minimums without having an autoland system. It can also get you lower takeoff minimums on some runways.

This is why UPS used it on their B727-100QF.

Jan


User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

My brother's 172 has an HUD. It's an iPhone app that reverses a GPS instrument display so you can mount it on the dash and see the reflection in the window. It's worth the 99 cents.


Andy Goetsch
User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5542 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 8):
As I'm currently going for my PPL, from the ground up, we're taught how to just glance at instruments to check everything

Flying VFR is in many ways different to flying IFR. As you move to IFR, you will be taught to just look at your instruments, apart from some phases such as take-off and landing. Practically all airliner flying is in IFR.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 12):
My brother's 172 has an HUD. It's an iPhone app that reverses a GPS instrument display so you can mount it on the dash and see the reflection in the window. It's worth the 99 cents.

I have similar in my phone for my car, but it only really works in dark. Is this app of yours working well in daylight?


To the topic, I have only used HUGS in simulators, but I like the fact that you can see some aspects of your flight, especially speed, without having to move your attention from what is in front of you (useful for keeping straight on takeoff and for looking the runway up on approach. The price of such an optional goodie may not warrant its usefulness by the beancounters though.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 5516 times:

We have HGS with EVS installed on the bizjet. I use the HGS every day and all day. Rarely looking down at the PFD.

Either I missed it or it hasn't been pointed out that HGS is one option, a monochrome repeater of the PFD on a glass screen. Additionally an Enhanced Vision Display, an infa red image, is superimposed onto the display to help the pilot see during low visibility or at night. It's not "X Ray Vision" but it helps. I would say once or twice per year it allows us to see the runway during an approach where without EVS we would be making a missed approach. EVS runway image typically comes into view 1/4 to 1/2 mile before a visual is made and works best in hazy or foggy conditions. Doesn't do much for us in rain or snow.

There are amended approach minimums (100' agl as we are not CAT 2 or 3 qualified), specific crew actions and standard calls for an EVS approach and we train on it every 6 months. Not something one would try without familiarity.

HGS and EVS are not always installed together. Many have HGS without EVS. Easy to pick out the guys with EVS...look for the camera mounted on the nose usually just below the glareshield, or on Gulfstream, just forward of the nose gear.

I was told the HVS/EVS is a $500,000 option on our type. Perhaps that explains why more airlines don't use it.

[Edited 2011-11-15 07:48:30]

User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 5425 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 13):
Flying VFR is in many ways different to flying IFR. As you move to IFR, you will be taught to just look at your instruments, apart from some phases such as take-off and landing. Practically all airliner flying is in IFR.

True, but even then, you wouldn't really need a HUD and even if you could land in very poor visibility - taxiing to the gate and other ground movements etc would probably get restricted quite a bit...

Maybe if the HUD had a colour display (e.g. a replication of the regular artificial horizon/speed/altitude display and then also the heading/navigation display) I think it would appeal more to me. With OLED I imagine it's possible (LCD would probably be a bit of a nightmare) - the Super AMOLED (OLED) display on my phone is certainly very clear and crisp and I think it would work quite well with a HUD.

Then again, it's not necessary, just what I would say is a "cool toy to have", bit like IFE isn't necessary, just a cool toy for the passengers to have fitted.


User currently offlines.p.a.s. From Liechtenstein, joined Mar 2001, 967 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week ago) and read 5412 times:

On my current job, flying E-Jets (E190/195), we are recommended to use the HGS on all flight phases, IMC or VMC.

My personal view is that it is a very nice feature, but from time to time I like to dim out the brightness or turn it off all together, as it is somehow addicting, to keep my visual lookout sharp.

On the other hand, precision approaches are easily done, and we can hand fly CAT II approaches with it and situational awareness is greatly enhanced, especially TCAS, windshear and EGPWS escape manoeuvres.



"ad astra per aspera"
User currently offlinenomadd22 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 1864 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5386 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 13):
Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 12):
My brother's 172 has an HUD. It's an iPhone app that reverses a GPS instrument display so you can mount it on the dash and see the reflection in the window. It's worth the 99 cents.

I have similar in my phone for my car, but it only really works in dark. Is this app of yours working well in daylight?

Not yet. A lot of folks are watching the Pioneer AR HUD due out next year. Speculation is around $500.



Andy Goetsch
User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 5185 times:

I know AF uses them on their A380s. Is it standard on all A380s?

User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Airlines are carefully looking at what they spend, especially in these times. In the end it's probably nice to have but not very essential hence i wouldn't expect an overwhelming response to it.

Well I understand that you can fly with out it... How ever how can you as an airline, simply ignore a feature that has obvious safety benefits? The HUGS(sorry for the missing U) is certified to be hand flown in CAT III conditions!
Albeit it's done automatically in other planes, but I think it shows the strength and confidence the HUGS can give a crew.

I am surprised that none of the 748is or 77Ws I have seen cockpit shots of do not have it, so this is why I was wondering whether or not Boeing offers it on those models.

Military planes have used this for ages! The F16 is ancient and has a really good HUD, so again, the "don't fix if it ain't broken" slur simply isn't applicable in this case, because the civil aviation business might just be decades behind the military industry.

As for the A380 is this really offered as an option?

Boaz.

[Edited 2011-11-19 04:03:54]


"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting yeelep (Reply 5):
So who has it?

I have also seen a SAS -700 or -600 with HUGS installed, and I think also Qantas has it??
About Southwest, I did not see any cockpit shots with this option installed, but who knows...
AA and DL for sure is flying with it.

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2556 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 19):
The HUGS(sorry for the missing U)

HGS is correct.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineyeelep From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5034 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 20):

Southwest has it. Its also standard on the 787.


User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4966 times:

Ok, so basically more US airlines use it.

A pilot here said that he uses the instruments more for checking or scanning while landing, and I understand, that if pilots prefer to fly by hand, then there is no need for HGS until you hit low vis. Conditions....

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 19):
How ever how can you as an airline, simply ignore a feature that has obvious safety benefits?

Well, we only have CAT I ILS where I am, and not all runways have it, the rest are VORDME approaches, or worse, no Instrument Approach... No benefit for HGS here...
When viz is a problem (which is only a very small % of the numbers of landings), 4/5 of the time it's due to rain, which usually only go below 1000m viz for about 15-20 mins, then increases to 1500-2000m viz until rain goes away altogether. The remaining 1/5th, is basically during smog season, when there are forest fires etc... creating a haze than can reduce viz to 200m (800m-1500m in most cases), and in a lot of cases, we just reschedule to go in the evening when viz is usually better in that season.
Would I therefore, benefit by forking out an extra 500,000 USD, given my operating environment? Why should I be forced to fork out that amount of money and carry that weight around?

Quoting windshear (Reply 19):
Military planes have used this for ages! The F16 is ancient and has a really good HUD, so again, the "don't fix if it ain't broken" slur simply isn't applicable in this case, because the civil aviation business might just be decades behind the military industry.

No, different circumstances. In addition to assist in instrumentation for flying, a combat aircraft is there to shoot stuff, HUD is used to shoot at things !   

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
25 Post contains images windshear : LOL fair enough! I guess avionics still is no match for a pair of pilot eyes Boaz.
26 Larshjort : I believe Cimber Sterling has a couple of CRJ's installed with the system. /Lars
27 Barney Captain : The accuracy at which you can hand fly an ILS using the HGS is amazing. As a demonstration in the SIM, we hand flew an ILS to zero-zero mins, stopped
28 Post contains links windshear : It looks like the captains flying with HGS enjoy the this tool! http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...d=98084a1ae95dd37622d3add196fcd9c8 Even in clea
29 Max Q : I have never used one but would like to, I think it is a very beneficial safety aid. As B Ca pointed out, if you can handfly an ILS to zero zero even
30 Starlionblue : If we look beyond current HGS researchers are looking at much more advanced vision systems that would show terrain and traffic at night or in low visi
31 26point2 : Bombardier is working on approval of HUD with the synthetic vision image. New Global 7000 and 8000 are to have this I believe.
32 BMI727 : Sounds like it would be an evolution of the EVS Gulfstream offers.
33 Fabo : Closer than you would think.
34 737tdi : Boy, there is some differing info. here. One really good little bit of info. is missing here or lightly touched upon. Aircraft with HGS can take off i
35 N243NW : SOP is to have the HGS on during all takeoffs and landings, due to the tailstrike protection feature it offers. Same with AA. None of our 737s have a
36 Starlionblue : Talking feasibility, sure. I mean it is feasible today. However I don't think widespread usage is anywhere near.
37 windshear : Now that is cool! I forgot about take off! Another element I didn't know, thank you! But this again makes me wonder why the 77W is not equipped with
38 N243NW : My pleasure. That's why this forum's here, right? On the 777, the aircraft's FBW system automatically inputs a TSP CMD (tailstrike protection command
39 N243NW : Also, not to poke at semantics, but the combiner is actually the glass surface that the pilot looks through. The large gray protrusion in the ceiling
40 yeelep : Thanks for pointing that out, brain fart on my part.
41 Post contains images windshear : Yes! Wow!! Boaz.
42 737tdi : One thing that you may not have noticed. Compare the two pics. above and you will notice that there are 2 different models of HGS installed. The top i
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