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Boeing Renton Runway  
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5153 times:
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I was reading up on Renton Airport and was surprised to see that the runway was only 5,382 feet. How difficult is it for a 737 to take off on that Runway. I understand that they don't exactly take off fully loaded but on delivery flights is there a fuel restriction as well? I saw that the 757 was also produced there as well. Was that even more difficult to take off from the field? I was very surprised such a big production facility would have such a short runway.
Blue


All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (3 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5136 times:

The new B737 usually only flies a short distance for its first flight from Renton to the finish out facilities at King Field.

About 4 nm - maybe 20 nm total distance if they have to go around to land from the north at BFI. Delivery flights to the airlines start from BFI.

While 5,382 feet is on the short side, it is not significantly limiting. One of the shortest runways for regular flights is SNA - just 5,700 feet - 312 more than RNT and they have service with B737, A320 to Denver, DFW, Chicago and Atlanta - just to name a few.

Some KRNT flights do go farther - here is a recent one - today - out to Moses Lake - http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...8/history/20111121/1710Z/KRNT/KMWH

[Edited 2011-11-21 15:14:02]

EDIT - I'm sorry my information is old - I see three B737 from KRNT-KMWH-KBFI and five B737 from KRNT-KPAE-KBFI in the past week.


[Edited 2011-11-21 15:18:10]

User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3856 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (3 years 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5115 times:
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for perspective, 707's, KC135's, C-97's all left from that same runway. Plus the 3 initial 747's landed there for refurbishment following certification and left. Note one 747 came in too low and wiped out some landing gear. The 757's had no problem..

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9810 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (3 years 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5081 times:

Believe it or not, but Boeing has landed a 747 on the short runway at Renton Field before, although it did not go so well:

http://www.fss.aero/accident-reports/look.php?report_key=65

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
The new B737 usually only flies a short distance for its first flight from Renton to the finish out facilities at King Field.

About 4 nm - maybe 20 nm total distance if they have to go around to land from the north at BFI. Delivery flights to the airlines start from BFI.

The typical flight is 1 - 2 hours from Renton and first lands at another airport such as Paine Field, Moses Lake or Yakima to perform a few landings in various configuration. They fly to airports that favor Boeing test operations that are not crowded and have long runways. The airplane will make multiple flights before returning back to BFI. Typically the plane is not refueled until it returns to Boeing Field and the delivery center there. Total flight time can get quite long involving multiple takeoffs, but the airplane is not anywhere near MTOW. Some test flights go out at Max Fuel capacity depending on the requirements, but they are still below max payload since there is only about 3 people on the airplane.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):
I was reading up on Renton Airport and was surprised to see that the runway was only 5,382 feet. How difficult is it for a 737 to take off on that Runway.

The biggest problem is noise restrictions. Jet takeoffs are only permitted to the North under noise abatement restrictions unless a waiver and a fine are paid. Taking off with a tailwind off 5,000 ft runway with water at the other end is a bit more of a challenge, but the airplanes are always up in the air long before they are out of runway.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):
I understand that they don't exactly take off fully loaded but on delivery flights is there a fuel restriction as well?

No fuel restrictions. With no payload, full tanks is not anywhere near MTOW on a 737.

[Edited 2011-11-21 16:09:37]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5033 times:

Quoting kanban (Reply 2):
Note one 747 came in too low and wiped out some landing gear.

I believe that flight might have been the one that ended 747 takoffs out of Renton.

edit: Building on RoseFlyer's post. If you look at an aerial photo of where the Renton plant is located, Mercer Island and Newcastle are located almost immediately north and northeast of the plant. Those two suburbs are significantly more affluent than Renton and points south. Almost certainly that's why the noise restrictions are for takeoffs to the north.

When I lived in Magnolia the community managed to significantly lobby the FAA to keep overflights to SEA from above our neighborhood and over less affluent suburbs. Now that I live in Fremont, I hear those flights all the time.

[Edited 2011-11-21 17:08:02]


The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9810 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 weeks ago) and read 4964 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 4):

edit: Building on RoseFlyer's post. If you look at an aerial photo of where the Renton plant is located, Mercer Island and Newcastle are located almost immediately north and northeast of the plant. Those two suburbs are significantly more affluent than Renton and points south. Almost certainly that's why the noise restrictions are for takeoffs to the north.

Actually, it is the opposite. Takeoffs to the South have noise restrictions. Takeoffs to the North have to obey noise abatement procedures and immediately turn right after takeoff and remain over lake Washington rather than overflying Mercer Island communities at low altitude. There are no noise abatement procedures for landings.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2843 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
Actually, it is the opposite. Takeoffs to the South have noise restrictions. Takeoffs to the North have to obey noise abatement procedures and immediately turn right after takeoff and remain over lake Washington rather than overflying Mercer Island communities at low altitude. There are no noise abatement procedures for landings.

Originally, I read your post literally, but I couldn't believe it was the opposite of what I thought. Hence the edit. I'm really quite amazed. Renton HS is less than a half mile south of the airport, and the new "Landing" development is immediately to the east between the runway and 405. Interesting that there's no noise restrictions to the north.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently onlinedlednicer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 547 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4902 times:
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DATABASE EDITOR

At the south end of the runway is a large jet blast deflector, right by the perimeter road. Signs warn you to not drive behind the deflector when jet aircraft are taking off, due to the jet blast.

Here is a view of the north end of the field:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Lednicer



Also at the north end of the field, on the west side, is the Will Rogers Wiley Post Memorial Seaplane Base. Float planes are launched on a ramp at the end of the runway and aircraft taxi out from there. The seaplane base got its name because it is where Will Rogers and Wiley Post left from on their ultimately-fatal trip to Alaska in 1935.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Lednicer



User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3856 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4874 times:
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Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 4):
I believe that flight might have been the one that ended 747 takoffs out of Renton.


Sorry that was the first of three landings.. came in too low and the gear was below the runway threshold.. Funny the report shown above says they hit an embankment.. the runway ends at the water.. unless they consider the seaplane ramp next to to an embankment.

The take offs were normal but scared the heck out of the islanders.


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4853 times:
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Isn't it amazing though that there are noise restrictions at all? I would bet that almost all of the people in those communities bought there long after Boeing was test flying out of there. Like most all of the airports in the world. They are way out in the country and then people build around them and complain???

User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2837 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4803 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
The new B737 usually only flies a short distance for its first flight from Renton to the finish out facilities at King Field.

I was unaware that they left unfinished! I'm sure they must be super light without everything instead not to mention no payload.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
Isn't it amazing though that there are noise restrictions at all? I would bet that almost all of the people in those communities bought there long after Boeing was test flying out of there. Like most all of the airports in the world. They are way out in the country and then people build around them and complain???

Gotta love how people thing everything should be set up to make them happy! The FAA should have told them hell no, but of course politicians don't like angry rich people!
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinen604ff From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4672 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Believe it or not, but Boeing has landed a 747 on the short runway at Renton Field before, although it did not go so well:

Chief Boeing engineer on the 747 project, Joe Sutter, was in the cockpit and continually insisted that the captain was going to land short. Long story short, I think the captain wound up having a nice career with Lockheed.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
I would bet that almost all of the people in those communities bought there long after Boeing was test flying out of there.

You would win that bet.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
They are way out in the country and then people build around them and complain???

Correct. Something to keep in mind is that Boeing has a very large footprint in Renton and now, decades later, that land is incredibly valuable. It's basically the only undeveloped waterfront in Seattle that isn't already a park. The City Of Renton would far rather the whole thing get converted to malls and housing due to the related jump in tax revenue.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
I was unaware that they left unfinished! I'm sure they must be super light without everything instead not to mention no payload.

They're finished construction, they're not painted. So they should be very close to OEW (less a hundred pounds or something for paint). But you're correct they have almost no payload and a relatively small fuel load.

Tom.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9810 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4553 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):

Originally, I read your post literally, but I couldn't believe it was the opposite of what I thought. Hence the edit. I'm really quite amazed. Renton HS is less than a half mile south of the airport, and the new "Landing" development is immediately to the east between the runway and 405. Interesting that there's no noise restrictions to the north

Shopping areas typically don't force noise abatement procedures, but rather residential areas do. There is noise abatement and 737s fly the east channel as they climb so that they aren't passing over Mercer Island at 1,000-2,000ft.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 9):
Isn't it amazing though that there are noise restrictions at all? I would bet that almost all of the people in those communities bought there long after Boeing was test flying out of there. Like most all of the airports in the world. They are way out in the country and then people build around them and complain???

Seattle is a relatively densely populated area, so there will be people living in the area of Renton Field since it is quite close to the city. I wouldn't call it way out in the country when it was built during WWII, and it certainly is one of the more urban airports in the country by today's standards. It was built on reclaimed soil from a diverted river. Both Boeing Field and Renton Field have noise abatement restrictions. Renton is stricter as it restricts jets to taking off over the water, unless a fine is paid. General Aviation can do whatever it wants. Engine runs are also not permitted at night. Renton Field is squeezed into residential areas, so I think it is understandable that there are noise restrictions. Boeing can always use Paine Field in Everett for operations at any time of day or night since there are no noise restrictions there. It's still relatively rural.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):

I was unaware that they left unfinished! I'm sure they must be super light without everything instead not to mention no payload.

Not really unfinished. The plane is about as finished except for some that aren't painted as they get unless there is a problem with interiors shortages (galleys & seats come to mind).

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12):

They're finished construction, they're not painted. So they should be very close to OEW (less a hundred pounds or something for paint). But you're correct they have almost no payload and a relatively small fuel load.

Some are painted. There's 2 paint hangars in Renton and 3 at Boeing Field.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2469 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Believe it or not, but Boeing has landed a 747 on the short runway at Renton Field before, although it did not go so well:

I have landed on a 747-100 on ICT's Runway 1R, which was 7,300 ft long. There were only about 30 passengers on board, but used the same runway on the the next leg for a non-stop flight to SFO with a full load of passengers.



Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4400 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
Boeing can always use Paine Field in Everett for operations at any time of day or night since there are no noise restrictions there. It's still relatively rural.

Not even close. PAE is surrounded by highly developed urban areas.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25987 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4366 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):
I was reading up on Renton Airport and was surprised to see that the runway was only 5,382 feet. How difficult is it for a 737 to take off on that Runway.

737s have been taking off with significant payloads from 5,000 ft. runways in Canada since the 1960s.

737s (and A319s/320s) are also heavily used at Rio de Janeiro's city center SDU airport where the runway is more than 1,000 ft. shorter (4,341 ft.) than Renton's, and with water at both ends.

Takeoff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul92HjksFuM

Approach and landing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYHMX9HFMAQ


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4312 times:
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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
Seattle is a relatively densely populated area, so there will be people living in the area of Renton Field since it is quite close to the city. I wouldn't call it way out in the country when it was built during WWII, and it certainly is one of the more urban airports in the country by today's standards. It was built on reclaimed soil from a diverted river. Both Boeing Field and Renton Field have noise abatement restrictions. Renton is stricter as it restricts jets to taking off over the water, unless a fine is paid. General Aviation can do whatever it wants. Engine runs are also not permitted at night. Renton Field is squeezed into residential areas, so I think it is understandable that there are noise restrictions. Boeing can always use Paine Field in Everett for operations at any time of day or night since there are no noise restrictions there. It's still relatively rural.

In the last part of my statement I was talking about any airports. Look at where I work, KDAL, for example. There are aerial pictures of it circa 1930's and the only things around it are cows and farm fields. Also we are not allowed to perform maintenance runs over idle between midnight and 0600.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 13):
Boeing can always use Paine Field in Everett for operations at any time of day or night since there are no noise restrictions there.

It's not no restrictions, but it is more lenient than Boeing Field or Renton Field. You still have to talk to Airport Ops for engine runs or operations in the night.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 15):
PAE is surrounded by highly developed urban areas.

That's overstating it a bit...somewhat developed suburban areas maybe, but nobody can credibly describe the area around Paine Field as "urban."

Tom.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4209 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 15):
PAE is surrounded by highly developed urban areas.

That's overstating it a bit...somewhat developed suburban areas maybe, but nobody can credibly describe the area around Paine Field as "urban."

Uh, I work about 2 miles from PAE, so I would know. I drove right by the south end of the runway on Harbour Pointe Blvd about 45 minutes ago. The city of Mukilteo and the Harbour Pointe community is west. Everett is north and east. Lynnwood is south. All cities with 20,000-100,000+ population surrounding it.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of MWH? Maybe we are both saying the same thing, but just have different definitions of urban.


User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3828 times:
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Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
All cities with 20,000-100,000+ population surrounding it.

Here around Dallas/Ft Worth those would be small towns. My point earlier was that when PAE/Boeing field were built those communities were probably non existent or very small. Then as the area grew pop. wise then housing started surrounding the airports. They new where they were buying and the noises emitted from an airport. I'm sorry it's just a sore subject with me. Before buying a place doesn't one take the responsibility to investigate what is around. I wouldn't buy a house next to a stockyard either. If I did I wouldn't complain about the smell.

737tdi


User currently offlinekanban From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 3856 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3788 times:
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People around here buy next to the pulp mill and then complain about the smell.

Renton Field/Boeing was first Navy seaplane manufacturing site.. and has always had people close by and on the island opposite. The only problem I recall in the last 50 years was topless sunbathers in the late 60's on the log booms that used to be moored just off shore.

Paine Field

"The large commercial airport that was planned for in the 1930s never resulted. When the United States entered into World War II, there was a need to protect the Bremerton Shipyards and the Boeing plant and airfield in Seattle, which produced the B-17 and B-29 bombers. The Army Air Corps occupied the field in the spring of 1941. At that time, Snohomish County Airport consisted of little more than two paved runways in the common cross-section pattern, set off at different angles to take advantage of the most favorable winds.

The Army Air Corps manned Paine Field from 1941 to 1946. During that time, they made improvements in the airbase and helped the community economically even though most of the commercial traffic came to a halt during the war. By the time World War II came to a close, the military presence at Paine Field was all but gone. In 1946, the airbase began to be returned to county supervision. The final transfer of property back to Snohomish County was complete in 1948.

Before the County could start planning for the continued development of a "super airport," the United States was again involved in an armed conflict—this time in Korea. When the Pacific Northwest defense installations were reviewed it was decided that a military presence would once again be felt at Paine Field. In 1951, a United States Air Force Aerospace Defense command unit was stationed at Paine Field and its name was officially changed to Paine Air Force Base."
From http://www.painefield.com/history/history.html


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