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B6 - A320 - ETOPS question  
User currently offlinejbcontrails From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 10 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

Hi all,

Im new to the forums and I am sure that this discussion has be beat to death. Please accept my apologies in advance. However with ETOPS certification for flights to places such as SXM and transcon capability and A320 NEOS on order. Is there any realistic chance that B6 will start flights to HNL, OGG, KOA? I know they divert quite reguarly during winter months on transcons due to the strong jetstream, however, most flights from CA to Hawaii are shorter then the BOS to west coast routes. Is the ETOPS time certifcation issued by the FAA for Carribbean destinations valid for Hawaii operations as well? Thanks for your inputs.

-J

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

Quoting jbcontrails (Thread starter):
Is the ETOPS time certifcation issued by the FAA for Carribbean destinations valid for Hawaii operations as well?

Without knowing for sure I'm gonna say the answer is no. Hawaii is a long way out into the largest ocean on the planet, and there is a lot of empty space before/after Hawaii. Unique the Caribbean which is surrounded on 3 sides by lots of land and lots of potential diversion airports.

I have just checked on GCmap which stated that the minimum requirement to operate LAX-HNL is ETOPS/EDTO180.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13134 posts, RR: 100
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5818 times:
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Quoting jbcontrails (Thread starter):
Is there any realistic chance that B6 will start flights to HNL, OGG, KOA?

In my opinion, yes. But it will take the A320NEO with sharklets due to greater diversion margin over water.

Quoting jbcontrails (Thread starter):
I know they divert quite reguarly during winter months on transcons due to the strong jetstream, however, most flights from CA to Hawaii are shorter then the BOS to west coast routes.

The sharklets will help the winter diversions. But that is only 100nm additional range. The engines will provide about another 400nm of range (after the weight penalty of the engine which is ~1.8t including about 1/2t for the airframe).

A prior discussion on the topic:
A320NEO Weight Revealed - Flightglobal (by art Dec 7 2010 in Civil Aviation)

For example, while LAX-BOS is 2269nm vs. LAX-HNL of 2221, the over-water flight will require more surplus fuel (no real diversion available until very close to HNL). Since LAX-HNL is possible with the current 738 (going from memory, 3400nm range), the A320NEO should be able to fly to the islands.

In my opinion, the winglets will allow for more fuel volume. For example, with B6, they found sans winglets the ACJ (due to its weight) cut range. I suspect with the wingles (NEO or no) the ACJ will provide the A320, with a high passenger payload, the range it needs. So it is possible B6 could fly to Hawaii with A320 (w/sharklets & ACJ) prior to the A320NEO, but I consider it unlikely.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2891 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Quoting jbcontrails (Thread starter):
However with ETOPS certification for flights to places such as SXM

SXM does not require ETOPS. Currently none of the destinations served by B6 require it as there are ample suitable alternatives, and B6 has no ETOPS certified aircraft.

Quoting jbcontrails (Thread starter):
Is there any realistic chance that B6 will start flights to HNL, OGG, KOA?

There is always a chance, but the market is quite busy already and based on the many threads in reference to Hawaii - US mainland routes, they are low-yield routes. Right now, a lot of the routes that B6 is opening are high-yield and not flooded with other carriers.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
The sharklets will help the winter diversions. But that is only 100nm additional range. The engines will provide about another 400nm of range (after the weight penalty of the engine which is ~1.8t including about 1/2t for the airframe).

And I think that is what you will start seeing. The sharklet-fitted aircraft will start taking out the wingtip fence aircraft on the transcons until the NEOs come in. There are also talks about the A321 starting to do some of the transcon trunk routes once they come online. But, once the NEO's come online, I have a feeling that not only will you see B6 open destinations a bit further away, but the NEO's taking over the transcon routes to get rid of the tech stops during the winter especially. That's just IMHO though.

~H81



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3624 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4750 times:

I hope B6 do not enter the Hawaiian market, same for WN. I do not like the ideal, of an A32X/737, flying to Hawaii from California.
I say, leave Hawaii, to airlines that can sever the routes with W/Bs. Hawaiian Air has the right ideal, A330s, are the best a/cs, to fly to Hawaii on form any where in the US.


PS: Please do not take this as a attack on you, I just do not like small planes, flying the Hawaiian service. Also Welcome to A-net.  


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9105 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 2):
But it will take the A320NEO with sharklets due to greater diversion margin over water.

Maximum diversion distance is based upon Vmo/Mmo, not drag reduction or reduced fuel burns.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 4):
I hope B6 do not enter the Hawaiian market, same for WN. I do not like the ideal, of an A32X/737, flying to Hawaii from California.

UA does it every day. Two engines is two engines no matter how big or small they are.

Quoting zeke (Reply 5):
Maximum diversion distance is based upon Vmo/Mmo, not drag reduction or reduced fuel burns.

Correct. The worst of 4 scenarios is what determines your necessary etops fuel. Usually 10 thousand feet on one engine. At that point sharklets will have little if any effect.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4340 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 4):
I do not like the ideal, of an A32X/737, flying to Hawaii from California.

Westjet and Alaska are both making very good money with that model.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 4):
I say, leave Hawaii, to airlines that can sever the routes with W/Bs. Hawaiian Air has the right ideal, A330s, are the best a/cs, to fly to Hawaii on form any where in the US.

If you're concerned about safety of twins on those routes, you should actually be in favour of smaller planes because the exposure is smaller. The amount of traffic is basically a constant so if you spread them out over more smaller aircraft, the average number of fatalities in the event of an accident is lower.

Tom.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9643 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

The A320 is ETOPS 180 capable, but would take payload hits operating to Hawaii on some routes. Although not unbearable, the A319 would probably be the ideal airplane.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
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