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Love Field Approach And Departure Routes  
User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1352 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

DFW Tracon is a massive figurative rectangle sitting on top of the metroplex, arrivals come in at the corners and departures through the middle and sides of this rectangle. Fly into DFW and one can see this easily. My question is what route do the SWA departures and arrivals from the west use to cross the busy DFW traffic to get to Love Field?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 998 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

We are descended quite early and drive along at 5000 ft to stay below the DFW arrivals and departrures. The same thing applies in MDW.


...from the Banana Republic....
User currently onlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1485 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (3 years 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6199 times:

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 1):
The same thing applies in MDW.

The FA's always know in MDW that when we get the 10K alert, we still have a good 300 years before we actually land. MDW arrivals seem to drag on for a long time....



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineAAR90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3494 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (3 years 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6086 times:

Here's an old graphic that illustrates the complexities in the metroplex....




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User currently offlineDFWHeavy From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 560 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6020 times:

I know a lot of times when I fly WN and approach from the West into runway 13R at DAL, we will directly over the North part of the DFW airfield and given there is only about 12 miles between the airports, we are indeed pretty low.


Christopher W Slovacek
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 319 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (3 years 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5982 times:

We fly a lot of the same arrivals and departures at different altitudes in the Metroplex


My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5838 times:

William

The arrivals and departure for Dallas Love Field are essentially the same as those at DFW, although the altitudes may differ, particularly for the arrivals.

If you go to www.flightaware.com (among other sites) you can see all the STARS and SIDS for Love Field, as well as the Visual West 13R which brings aircraft over the northern part of DFW. If you compare them to the STARS and SIDS for DFW, you will see they are very similar, although some of them may have different names.

e38


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5814 times:

Quoting e38 (Reply 6):
If you go to www.flightaware.com (among other sites) you can see all the STARS and SIDS for Love Field, as well as the Visual West 13R which brings aircraft over the northern part of DFW. If you compare them to the STARS and SIDS for DFW, you will see they are very similar, although some of them may have different names.

Thanks E38 and everyone for the replies, I have sat in the AA terminal on the east side of DFW and notice SWA flying overhead. Doesn't flying over DFW into Love make for a sharp descent?


User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

Quoting william (thread starter and reply 7), "Doesn't flying over DFW into Love make for a sharp descent?"

William, no, not really. What you are probably seeing from sitting in the AA terminals on the east side of DFW are aircraft flying the Love West Visual Approach to Rwy 13R at Dallas Love Field.

On this procedure, aircraft are required to remain at or above 4,000 feet MSL until south of North Lake (i.e., east of the extended centerlines for Runwys 17L/C/R at DFW and then continue the descent to Love Field. This area is close to Lippi intersection on the ILS RWY 13R approach to DAL. From that point, pilots have approximately 6 miles to lose 2100 feet if they wish to cross the Final Approach Fix (FAF)--Laura intersection--at 1900 feet. A normal glidepath is 3 degrees (i.e., 300 feet per nautical mile) so as you can see, the descent from a point south of North Lake to Laura intersection is only about 3.5 degrees. This procedure gives pilots plenty of time to stabilize the approach for the landing at DAL.
This is just a little steep for an ILS approach, but it is perfectly acceptable for a visual approach and folks aboard the aircraft wouldn't notice the difference in the descent angle.


e38


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

Thanks again a38 and those who responded.

User currently onlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5615 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5613 times:

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):

Here's an old graphic that illustrates the complexities in the metroplex....

Man, that *is* old - it still has the old cornerposts, the names of most of which I no longer recall (although I recognize Scurry VOR, SCY). Now, we have Cedar Creek (CQY), Bonham (BYP), Glen Rose (JEN) and Bowie (UKW) on the corners, and Ranger (FUZ), Maverick (TTT) and Cowboy (CVE) from east to west, Maverick being on the grounds of DFW (you see it between the lanes on the south part of the airport road).

Quoting william (Reply 7):

Thanks E38 and everyone for the replies, I have sat in the AA terminal on the east side of DFW and notice SWA flying overhead.

When I fly in from the west, headed to Addison (KADS), I frequently am routed directly over the top of DFW at 3,500' MSL - this is, of course, only in good weather, never when instrument procedures are in effect. It always amazes non-pilots or pilots who are strangers to the airspace when I get that, but the airspace directly over DFW is very calm. It's a real time-saver when inbound from the west.

DFW and DAL are pretty close together, but the airspace is exquisitely well-handled by controllers whom I contend are among the very best in the business.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 933 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (3 years 23 hours ago) and read 5559 times:
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Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
Man, that *is* old - it still has the old cornerposts, the names of most of which I no longer recall (although I recognize Scurry VOR, SCY)

You ain't kidding that's old... My house and property are right next door to the old Scurry VOR. It has long since rotted to the ground.

737tdi


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 18 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Why did the FAA replace the VORs?

User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 14 hours ago) and read 5516 times:

Wow, that chart certainly brought back memories of a lot of approaches and departures at Dallas Love. I actually go back earlier than that, to 1960, when Dallas Radar Approach Control issued identifying turns to inbound traffic. There was just something about "turn right to a heading of 330 for radar identification" that made me feel like I was in a Spitfire on an interception.

User currently onlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5615 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (2 years 12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5455 times:

Quoting william (Reply 12):
Why did the FAA replace the VORs?

They designed a whole raft of new STARs (Standard Terminal Arrival Route) and DPs (Departure Procedures), based upon the four "cornerposts" I mention above. It was needed to accommodate the very large volume of traffic in and out of DFW airspace (especially to/from KDFW).



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4988 times:

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 2):

The FA's always know in MDW that when we get the 10K alert, we still have a good 300 years before we actually land. MDW arrivals seem to drag on for a long time....

Actually with the way the MDW flows go, arrivals from the east over GSH actually are initially handled by the SBN TRACON after handoff from Chicago Center, SBN Approach actually hands the flights off to Chicago TRACON. The idea here is to get the SE arrivals into MDW below the arrivals for ORD from the SE, especially if ORD is on a West flow, when approach won't have much room to descend ORD arrivals to sequence them for 28.

I am not sure how the W gates into MDW work, but I believe those gates parallel the ORD arrivals.


User currently offlinee38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4920 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 14), "It was needed to accommodate the very large volume of traffic in and out of DFW airspace (especially to/from KDFW)."

That is correct. Moving the cornerpost VORs "outboard" enabled DFW Tracon to expand the available airspace for vectoring aircraft.

From the northwest cornerpost, going clockwise, the replacement VORs are as follows:

Bowie VOR replaced Bridgeport VOR
Bonham VOR replaced Blue Ridge VOR
Cedar Creek VOR replaced Scurry VOR and
Glen Rose VOR replaced Acton VOR

e38


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