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Night Take Off Tail Fin Lights On...  
User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin lights on usually showing off the airline's logo? Or is it just a corporate policy to do it to display cthe company's colors. I've seen some airplanes taking off at night with those lights off, so is it maybe up to each pilot? I apprecite some of the pilots to explain...


AA will Rise Again!
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5259 times:

Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Or is it just a corporate policy to do it to display cthe company's colors. I've seen some airplanes taking off at night with those lights off, so is it maybe up to each pilot? I apprecite some of the pilots to explain...

Not a pilot, but some airline's policy is to have them on, some off. AA comes to mind of not having them on at night, UA seems to keep theirs on.

UAL


User currently offlineloggat From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 666 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

DL pilots generally keep theirs off as a kind of silent protest to management in attempt to get their concessionary contract (circa 2003) back. I believe UAL pilots have adopted this too. Don't shoot the messenger, it's just what I've heard out there. I'm sure management would love to have the logo lights on at night for their own free advertising. Unless the weight savings from removing 2 light bulbs yields significant fuel savings.


There are 3 types of people in this world, those that can count, and those that can't.
User currently offlinepolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2157 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

Quoting loggat (Reply 2):
Unless the weight savings from removing 2 light bulbs yields significant fuel savings.

It's not weight savings that drive removing the bulbs (as I believe AA has done). It's the maintenance savings. No need to keep spares of the bulb and pay someone to go up and change them when they could be doing more important work.


User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4898 times:

These are called "Logo Lights". They also help to make the plane more visible to other pilots.

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4441 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):

Not a pilot, but some airline's policy is to have them on, some off. AA comes to mind of not having them on at night

What would be the point of having them then ?



It's all about maximum visibility, I use every exterior light we have available up to 18000 feet where I will turn of all but the strobes and nav / position lights.



It's important to be seen !



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4815 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
What would be the point of having them then ?



Come with them? Some airlines use them. I think it's not an option per se, but standard equipment.


User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 935 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin

Tail fin?

Are you possibly referring to the horizontal stabilizer?  



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17017 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 7):
Quoting eastern023 (Thread starter):
Is this a general safety practice to take off at night witht the tail fin

Tail fin?

Are you possibly referring to the horizontal stabilizer?

I think he's talking about the vertical stabilizer, aka the tail fin.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineDBCooper From Brazil, joined Jun 2004, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4648 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
It's all about maximum visibility, I use every exterior light we have available up to 18000 feet where I will turn of all but the strobes and nav / position lights.

I completely agree...and would do the same.

I would make it madatory!

It made me wonder if the US Air accident in LAX would have been avoided if they had been able to spot a better lit turboprop on the runway before they ran into it.


- DBC


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Quoting loggat (Reply 2):
DL pilots generally keep theirs off as a kind of silent protest to management in attempt to get their concessionary contract (circa 2003) back. I believe UAL pilots have adopted this too. Don't shoot the messenger, it's just what I've heard out there.

OK, I won't shoot you, but don't pass on an inaccurate message please. You do realize many aircraft do not have logo lights installed, right? Pilots configure lights per their manuals, and the manual sets normally give the Captain some leeway in certain visibility conditions: maybe you don't want all your lights on breaking out of a Cat III, maybe turning on strobes on the runway at night is blinding pilots in other aircraft sitting in line. Some airlines allow this flexibility, some don't. I have flown for a US major for over 20 years, have flown on the jumpseat of every other major airline and most regional operators, have trained pilots from literally dozens of airlines around the world, and I have never seen anyone refusing to turn on the logo light as a protest of some sort. It may have happened sporadically, but it is certainly not the default as you imply.

To sum up: I don't personally know of any pilots who would like to increase their chances of a collision by not turning on logo lights as some kind of work action. I'm not saying it has never happened, but it is certainly the exception to the rule.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
It's all about maximum visibility, I use every exterior light we have available up to 18000 feet where I will turn of all but the strobes and nav / position lights.



It's important to be seen !

You have basically outlined an excellent standard philosophy, and I agree with you that it's important.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
What would be the point of having them then ?




Come with them? Some airlines use them. I think it's not an option per se, but standard equipment.
Quoting DBCooper (Reply 9):
I would make it madatory!

On the majority of aircraft logo lights are optional equipment, and some airlines have deactivated the systems to minimize maintenance expense. They were designed to spotlight the logo on the tail for marketing purposes; they add weight and complexity to the aircraft, and many airlines decided that the expense was not worth it. In today's crowded skies I like them just for the incresed visibility.


User currently offlinehorstroad From Germany, joined Apr 2010, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4583 times:

in some parts of the world it is better to have them on to be identified as a civil aircraft and not being shot.

User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4572 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
Come with them? Some airlines use them. I think it's not an option per se, but standard equipment.

They were an option on the L-1011!


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):

Logo lights are an option and not all aircraft have them. When I was at an airline only 50% of the fleet had them.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4441 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 10):
maybe turning on strobes on the runway at night is blinding pilots in other aircraft sitting in line.

I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them



It is far more important to be highly visible to all other traffic



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1535 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4418 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):

I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them

It is totally valid. You don't have to look at a strobe to be totally blinded by it. The light bounces quite easily, especially when a plane is on a concrete surface. The only time I have strobes on during ground operations is on the runway, either for take-off or when crossing a runway.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4411 times:

Quoting loggat (Reply 2):

wrong wrong wrong, and did I mention wrong? Most aircraft in the Delta fleet do not have them installed, and up until recently the policy was not to run them to save money. It is now corporate policy to run the logo lights at nighton aircraft that have them installed (which is only a select few).



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4441 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4332 times:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 15):


It is totally valid. You don't have to look at a strobe to be totally blinded by it. The light bounces quite easily, especially when a plane is on a concrete surface. The only time I have strobes on during ground operations is on the runway, either for take-off or when crossing a runway.

Never been 'blinded by strobes' in 32 years of flying. I guess I don't spend a lot of time looking at them.



Of course you only have them on on the runway or crossing a runway.



You shouldn't taxi around with them on.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4315 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them

I find your need to have them on long before you enter the runway a total pain in the ass and highly annoying.

Blinding? No. But annoying as hell and a complete lack of situational awareness on your part to keep then on with others around.

Turn them on when you start your takeoff roll



My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4194 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4312 times:

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 18):

He never said he would have them on long before he entered the runway... only on entering or when crossing a runway.

That is standard practice among many carriers (including my own as well as my previous carrier) and IMO very good technique. If I'm on a runway, I'm flashing.

There are quite a few unnecessarily dead people who would agree with this practice as well...



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

Name one fatal accident which would have been prevented by strobes

[Edited 2011-12-17 21:35:18]


My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2389 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

The 737 landing on the Metroliner at LAX?

User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

SR had to have them off in Saudia Arabia.
Christian displays forbidden.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 10):
maybe turning on strobes on the runway at night is blinding pilots in other aircraft sitting in line.

I have heard this reasoning before and it's just not valid, if you find the strobes to be blinding then don't look at them



It is far more important to be highly visible to all other traffic

Whoa, calm down! I just gave examples of how some airlines allowed Captains to have latitude with lighting and some don't.

I specifically said "Pilots configure lights per their manuals, and the manual sets normally give the Captain some leeway in certain visibility conditions...Some airlines allow this flexibility, some don't.

I neither endorsed nor condemned either example I provided.


User currently offlinecmb56 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Some airlines don't use them at all even if the aircraft is equipped with them.

25 474218 : The logo light is not a mandated safety light. It is a...logo...light!
26 26point2 : We will never know. Perhaps a better question is to think of all the potential accidents avoided by strobes. This we will never know either but many
27 nonfirm : We deactivated all of our logo light on are MD-80 fleet and installed caps.The problem with the Logo Lights on the MD-80 is them being mounted on the
28 HAWK21M : True....Maintenance costs sometimes lead to the decision on not using the logo lights,The location of these Logo lights ie on the upper surface of th
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