WarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 368 posts, RR: 3 Posted (5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6320 times:
Stunning livery but doesn't black paint weigh more due to the large amount of pigment required? Would it be enough to incur a significant weight penalty (reduction in range and/or payload) to make the Black Jet less competitive with an all white jet on an apples-to-apples basis? Obviously, ANZ sees value in the scheme to overcome such penalties.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 7619 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 6264 times:
Yes it adds about 200lbs in weight to the airplane which will have an impact on fuel burn. Payload and range are likely not major factors since I doubt the 777-300ER hits payload restrictions on LAX-AKL.
Also this is a time consuming and expensive livery to produce, which adds cost. Finally, while in the air, the packs can easily cool the plane, but on the ground it will require ground air conditioning units to keep it cool. With that said, there is a reason why there are virtually no larger airlines that choose dark paint schemes anymore. I think US Airways was the last airline to introduce a dark livery on their entire fleet.
However on just one airplane the marketing benefit likely outweighs the extra costs. NZ can advertise New Zealand. Their 777-300s compete against the far less desirable QF A330s (in all categories except economy class seat width). They are setting themselves apart from the competition.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
WarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 368 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 6217 times:
Quoting horstroad (Reply 1): why would black pigments weigh more than white, yellow or green pigments?
I took the Boeing Factory Tour about two years ago and it was noted that darker paints require more pigment and weigh more. White being the lightest as the color is the absence of pigment.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2): Yes it adds about 200lbs in weight to the airplane which will have an impact on fuel burn.
Thanks! Roughly one average paying customer with few bags. Not too much of a penalty on its face, but it would add up over the years if implemented across an entire fleet.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 7619 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 6198 times:
Airlines have the tendency to beat up the manufacturers to lower weight of the airplane to improve fuel burn and then weight takes a backseat to the marketing department's goals. The marketing guys come up with the interior, livery, layout, etc. If weight was viewed as critical in the marketing area as it is in engineering, there would be no black planes. With the runup in fuel prices, Eurowhite liveries appear everywhere since the marketing department can't come up with a justification for a colorful scheme.
With that said, I miss the Pacific Wave. NZ is down to one of the most boring schemes out there.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
horstroad From Germany, joined Apr 2010, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 6196 times:
Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 3): White being the lightest as the color is the absence of pigment.
as the primer is green you definitely need some pigments to get a white aircraft, so I don´t get it. sure, the more layers you have, the heavier it becomes. but doesn´t this apply to any color not only black, as aircraft paints are usually opaque even the brighter colors?
TSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2636 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 6087 times:
Quoting horstroad (Reply 5): Quoting WarpSpeed (Reply 3):
White being the lightest as the color is the absence of pigment.
as the primer is green you definitely need some pigments to get a white aircraft, so I don´t get it. sure, the more layers you have, the heavier it becomes. but doesn´t this apply to any color not only black, as aircraft paints are usually opaque even the brighter colors?
In paint the color white is not the absence of pigment, it's the presence of white pigment. With no pigment added at all, most paint is clear.
spencer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1609 posts, RR: 23 Reply 7, posted (5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 6049 times:
There's calculators to work out exactly weight/coverage for paint application but at the end of the day it's what's done on the day. Basically no two painters spray identically the same. Coverage and usage will be different from painter to painter. As mentioned above there's the colour of the surface you're painting, which even black doesn't cover in one coat sometimes. You have to really be on your game to get it right first time, it's tiring on the arm and mistakes often happen. Whether this can keep that figure of 200lb down is a different matter.
Spence
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
unattendedbag From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2151 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 5866 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2): Also this is a time consuming and expensive livery to produce, which adds cost.
I thought the first paint job off the line was free (included in the price of the aircraft) whether it's all white or Wunala Dreaming, it costs the same.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 11, posted (5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 5827 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2): Yes it adds about 200lbs in weight to the airplane which will have an impact on fuel burn.
Assuming that the aircraft flies with 350 passengers, this is the 351st passenger. That's a hit of 0.2% or so. I think that such a small effect would get lost in the background noise of variations of passenger size, winds, etc. etc. etc.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 11032 posts, RR: 72 Reply 12, posted (5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 5804 times:
Quoting horstroad (Reply 1): why would black pigments weigh more than white, yellow or green pigments?
It all depends on what the pigment material is and how much of it you need to obtain the colour. Certain pigments are denser materials (so at equal volume fraction of pigment the paint is heavier) and certain colours require more volume fraction of pigment to look right.
Quoting oksman (Reply 8): Technically, black is the absence of pigment (colours), and white a mixture of all colours!
We're mixing up the light reflected from the painted surface with the pigment.
Black is not the absence of pigment...black is the presence of a pigment that absorbs all visible colours so that little light is reflected. Similarly, white is not "all pigments", it's a pigment that reflects all visible light. Coloured pigments preferentially absorb certain colours and reflect others...a blue pigment absorbs everything except blue. If you mix a bunch of coloured pigments together you get blackish, because all the colours are going to get absorbed by at least one of the pigments.
This is totally different than mixing coloured light, where it's all additive.
horstroad From Germany, joined Apr 2010, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 5784 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 12): It all depends on what the pigment material is and how much of it you need to obtain the colour.
I know that. but are dark pigments like black inevitably heavier than bright colors? does it really play a significant role whether your airplane is covered by black or bright blue or golden pigments?
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 7619 posts, RR: 51 Reply 14, posted (5 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 5778 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Assuming that the aircraft flies with 350 passengers, this is the 351st passenger. That's a hit of 0.2% or so. I think that such a small effect would get lost in the background noise of variations of passenger size, winds, etc. etc. etc.
No it is not insignificant. It makes a genuine difference. The manufacturers fight to get every pound out that they can. I think this can get lost in variation when trying to track it against other planes in the fleet, but it does make a difference.
Quoting unattendedbag (Reply 9):
I thought the first paint job off the line was free (included in the price of the aircraft) whether it's all white or Wunala Dreaming, it costs the same.
I believe the airline still has to pay to design it whether it is in house or designed by Teague. Also, I believe the standard paint scheme is only a 3 color paint scheme, and that it may cost more for more complex designs, however I believe this is a 3 color paint scheme. Almost every paint scheme in the world is a 3 color scheme.
[Edited 2011-12-19 19:05:47]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
aklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 435 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (5 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5670 times:
As far as pigments go, I suspect TiO2 which is used for white is probably heavier than most others. Black might be pigmented with C which is much lighter. Black looks heavier, but that doesn't really mean much.
Quoting 474218 (Reply 10):
I am not sure about the weight of paint, but I know if you paint a car "red" it cost more than any other color.
Are you referring to the "Highway patrol fee"? I think that only applies to sports cars. My red Lexus SUV is still pretty much invisible. The assumption is that anyone boring enough to own one couldn't possibly be driving fast.
Starlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 15102 posts, RR: 69 Reply 16, posted (5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 5629 times:
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2):
Yes it adds about 200lbs in weight to the airplane which will have an impact on fuel burn.
Assuming that the aircraft flies with 350 passengers, this is the 351st passenger. That's a hit of 0.2% or so. I think that such a small effect would get lost in the background noise of variations of passenger size, winds, etc. etc. etc.
Even less if you count cargo. Still, 0.2% is not insignificant for an airline I think.
I thought the first paint job off the line was free (included in the price of the aircraft) whether it's all white or Wunala Dreaming, it costs the same.
I believe the airline still has to pay to design it whether it is in house or designed by Teague. Also, I believe the standard paint scheme is only a 3 color paint scheme, and that it may cost more for more complex designs, however I believe this is a 3 color paint scheme. Almost every paint scheme in the world is a 3 color scheme.
Many of the more complex designs, for example China Airlines's orchid, need a lot of work and are practically hand painted. I can't imagine Boeing wouldn't charge extra for that kind of thing.
Tact Is For People Who Aren't Witty Enough To Be Sarcastic
Here in Europe metallics are more expensive. Never heard a solid colour, especially one in particular, being more expensive. I wonder why that is the case there?
Spence
EOS1D4, 7D, 30D, 100-400/4.5-5.6 L IS USM, 70-200/2.8 L IS2 USM, 17-40 f4 L USM, 24-105 f4 L IS USM, 85 f1.8 USM
sunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3393 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 5503 times:
The weight increase for the black aircraft is likely to be much less than the weight spread between the lightest and heaviest of NZ's 5-plane 77W fleet, unless the black one happens to be the heaviest! I believe the weight spread between the first 6 frames of one of the Asian carriers 77W fleet was about 1000lbs so 200 lbs is almost irrelevant.
PGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2443 posts, RR: 47 Reply 19, posted (5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5025 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2): Their 777-300s compete against the far less desirable QF A330s (in all categories except economy class seat width). They are setting themselves apart from the competition.
Really? I am taking the 2x4x2, quieter, A-330 with wider seats any and every time I fly coach in preference to the appalling 3x4x3 in the noisier 777. It's fine you have an opinion, but it's not a fact.
CXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 1533 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4808 times:
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Quoting PGNCS (Reply 19): Really? I am taking the 2x4x2, quieter, A-330 with wider seats any and every time I fly coach in preference to the appalling 3x4x3 in the noisier 777. It's fine you have an opinion, but it's not a fact.
RoseFlyer did say "except economy class seat width". Regardless of aircraft type, NZ has the better business class than QF, and premium economy is non-existent on QF's A330s.
"I think he got the point." - James Bond (Sean Connery) in 'Thunderball'
borgcube From South Africa, joined Jun 2009, 10 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
With "plain" colors red is very expensive because it fades easily and making a stable colorfast red colorant is very expensive and needs a lot of UV protection.
Dayglo orange colorant can be even more expensive because it has to be milled many more times than most colors.
Black paint can weigh more than white because the black paint will still contain Titanium Dioxide to help its opacity ( how well it covers the color underneath).Weights can vary a lot depending on mixing formulas for colors.
"Metallics","Pearls" and "Xirallics" cost more and usually weigh more due to the added reflective particles.
Xirallics are very expensive at the moment due to the shortage caused when the only factory that made it was shut down in Japan after the earthquakes
747m8te From Australia, joined Aug 2008, 397 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3699 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4): With that said, I miss the Pacific Wave. NZ is down to one of the most boring schemes out there.
Indeed, the Pacific Wave looked great, was a nice touch to the scheme, without it...its dull!
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20): NZ has the better business class than QF,
Personally I prefer QF J class seats, though I must say im not a fan of the angled J class/heringbone layouts on any airline.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 2): Yes it adds about 200lbs in weight to the airplane which will have an impact on fuel burn. Payload and range are likely not major factors since I doubt the 777-300ER hits payload restrictions on LAX-AKL.
Actually it shouldn't cause too much of a payload issue on any of NZ routes for the 77W, don't think any of the flights push the 77W too far with NZ.
Either way, it does look pretty awesome and the advertising will pay for itself no doubt!
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EMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9177 posts, RR: 14 Reply 24, posted (4 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3537 times:
Quoting WarpSpeed (Thread starter): Stunning livery but doesn't black paint weigh more due to the large amount of pigment required?
Black actually weighs less then White. Next time your in a paint store pick up a qt of white and a qt of black. You'll see.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 HAWK21M: What about Heat absorbtion/reflection.....It should matter.
26 TSS: Where is there a paint store that keeps aircraft quality paint in stock in both white and black?
27 EMBQA: Aviation paint is not some super secret product. Besides, weight is weight...pigment is pigment. The manufacturing process is the same Oh yea... she'
28 Fabo: well then there is the question of how much will quart of black cover, and how much will quart of white. Anyway, why just not ask NZ (or rather someon
29 fridgmus: And maybe this is just a temporary paint scheme for a marketing event? But damn, she sure does look cool!!! F
30 HAWK21M: Add that to the difficulty in identifying defects during routine checks due to the color especially at nights....
31 qslinger: One questions, why are the engines not painted black? It would have gone well with the overall scheme if they did.[Edited 2012-01-13 15:37:08]
32 tdscanuck: Boeing has restricted the nacelle livery on 787's since 2006: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2006/q3/060710d_nr.html Tom.
33 spencer: It really depends on how you cover the surface, how many coats, how fast you are (or slow), temperature, colour of the surface underneath, lots of va
34 Fabo: well I was just reacting to a point being made by a counterpoint Personally, until somebody does what I suggested in reply 28, I can not say either wa
35 HAWK21M: Very Educational.....Considering the costs Involved.....Not surprising that its not opted for.
36 qslinger: That is good information Tom. 30,000 gallons/year is quite high. That brings me to another question: What about airlines that have painted their engi
37 tdscanuck: Unless you have a laminar flow nacelle, it doesn't make a difference. The 787 is the only current production large jet I'm aware of with a laminar fl
38 RoseFlyer: I don't think payload is the problem, but rather fuel burn. However marketing can earn back dollars that are lost in fuel burn. That's the whole reas
39 HAWK21M: For a Large fleet this small step can introduce huge savings in a year.
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