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Type Rating For Old Aircraft  
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 2445 posts, RR: 14
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Hello dear a.nutters,


something caught my mind lately... my stepfather is a fan of the Super Constellation, and I live near the base of the Breitling Super Connie so I've seen it flying this summer. Quite an airplane from another world...  

I wondered how one can achieve a type rating for an old aircraft that is only used by amateurs and enthusiasts today.

Are there flight instructors around that are still certified on these aircraft? Could I get a type rating for the Caravelle, the Coronado or even the Concorde?

How is type-related flying experience maintained if an aircraft type hasn't seen any use for five or ten years?


Thank you in advance,


flyingturtle


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4649 times:

Coronado (CV990) type-rating no longer exists. The owner of the Convair Jet type certificate (TC) worked with the FAA to ground the type permanently a year or two ago. The CV880 and CV990 jets will never fly again, unless the current TC owner chooses to do something about it!


Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

Thank you for your answer!

So the manufacturer has to maintain a TC by adhering to airworthiness directives (AD) and continuing technical support for the aircraft type so the particular aircraft is allowed to fly.

Without a flyable aircraft, getting a pilot's type rating does not make much sense... except for those type rating aficionados 

But if the Coronado TC was still valid, how can somebody get trained to fly that aircraft? Would the TC holder support my flight instructor? What qualifications would my flight instructor need to have?



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineUnited727 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 412 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Without a flyable aircraft, getting a pilot's type rating does not make much sense... except for those type rating aficionados 

Quite correct!

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
But if the Coronado TC was still valid, how can somebody get trained to fly that aircraft? Would the TC holder support my flight instructor? What qualifications would my flight instructor need to have?

This is a good question....I assume one would be questioned (by an FAA examiner qualified in type) orally on the type and then go through a formal flight test as with any other certificate or rating. On the types you mentions specifically (less Concorde, as I imagine its sims are still in existence and operable?) all training would most likely have to be done in the live aircraft, similar to that of the training on the DC-7B in Opa Locka by Chelsey Sullenburger and Jeff Skiles most recently. IIRC, they had to go through an incredible amount of Take-offs and Landings to be qualified in the type (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)



Looking for the impossible way to save those dying breeds!!!!
User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1574 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4552 times:

Quoting United727 (Reply 3):
IIRC, they had to go through an incredible amount of Take-offs and Landings to be qualified in the type (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

As PIC, probably. As SIC, I believe you could do it in an hour or two, with 3 takeoff and landings. SIC type ratings in the US are basically a joke, as no check-ride is required.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Thread starter):

I wondered how one can achieve a type rating for an old aircraft that is only used by amateurs and enthusiasts today.

Reticket the aircraft as an experimental. Presto, no type rating required because it's no longer governed by the type certificate.

Tom.


User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4481 times:
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Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):

What limitations does that place on the aircraft? or is that totally up to the governing agency on a case by case basis?

I know that XH558 flies on a permit to fly so it can only do VFR and sub 250kias (and some other stuff about not scaring old ladies in their back gardens    ).

Fred


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 6):
What limitations does that place on the aircraft?

The only hard limit I can think of is that you can't use it for scheduled commercial service. I'm not sure if you could use it for charter (probably not for large loads). There's no real limits on how you can fly it if you're just trying to move it around, show it at airshows, do demo's, etc.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 6):
or is that totally up to the governing agency on a case by case basis?

Experimental tickets normally come with a list of operating limitations...the regulator can put anything they want in there on a case-by-case basis.

Tom.


User currently offlinedw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
The only hard limit I can think of is that you can't use it for scheduled commercial service. I'm not sure if you could use it for charter (probably not for large loads).

Very limited commercial operations--charter is out, along with aerial photography and most commercial flight training... the regs are restrictive and the legal opinions get even worse. Something like a CompAir would be an exceptional jump plane, but it is a no go unless the owner is generous enough to cover all expenses.

The restricted category is much less... restricted.

http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert...orthiness_certification/sp_awcert/

That said, if someone with a little more money than I wanted a VFR runabout between DC and NYC, an experimental Concorde would do nicely...



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4245 times:

Thank you all for your answers!

So the easiest way would be to get a multi-engine rating and let the aircraft fly under an experimental certificate. Having read the accident report of Hans Georg Schmid (former Swissair MD-11 captain and later a record-breaking aviator with his self-built aircraft), I know some of the restrictions that can be put on experimental aircraft.

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 8):
That said, if someone with a little more money than I wanted a VFR runabout between DC and NYC, an experimental Concorde would do nicely...

Who is this someone? 

For those interested: He miscalculated the CoG in %MAC and he exceeded even the already heightened, but approved MTOW. He wanted to fly non-stop from BSL to the Oshkosh airshow, but after a take-off-roll (3.4 km) he collided with an apartment building. Distance flown... 3.8 km.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4126 times:

It looks like the group still holding the occasional classes for the Ford Trimotor type rating out of Valle Airport near the Grand Canyon.

http://www.fordtyperatings.com/


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5061 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

I did a similar thing more than ten years ago. I too had a passion for the Constellation, and did the type rating in Avra Valley, just north west of Tuscon on Vern Raburn's L749A (technically a C121A). After sending a cheque for about USD10,000, they sent a set of manuals and Standard Operating Procedures. I was expected to have them well known by the time I arrived.

Interestingly enough, there was an L1049G parked near YYZ as a restaurant, so buying a coffee every now and then, I sat in the cockpit studying procedures!


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Photo © Alex Christie



When I arrived, I attended a ground school for three days, then did about 10 hours of flying. The last flight was the "check ride" with an FAA inspector who put the type rating on my US licence. With that in hand, Transport Canada added it to my Canadian ATPL.

Although, everyone acknowledged that it was unlikely I would ever find one of those to fly around. The type rating is still on my licence, as it always will be. In Canada a type rating is permanent, however, to actually legally fly the aircraft a PPC is required to fly it with an air carrier.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined exactly 3 years ago today! , 2445 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3852 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 10):

A Ford Trimotor? The Ju-52 is already a creature from another planet, the Trimotor even more so... but I've seen the Ju-52 recently in the Deutsche Museum in MUC.

I'm right back, I've got to peruse the trusty old Wikipedia about that airplane I have ignored until now...   

Quoting longhauler (Reply 11):

Thank you for sharing your story! And learning to fly in a restaurant is great too! 

(A colleague of mine has studied for biology exams at 9200 ft - in Alpine Club huts.)


All of your postings answer my question quite well, thank you again! So I'll do a bit of digging in the aviation regulations next.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
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