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Caravelle Used Parachute Braking?  
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6771 posts, RR: 7
Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

The Wikipedia article on the Caravelle has a pic of an Air France Caravelle III rolling out at Bromma and trailing a braking parachute.

Which models had the parachute option? A Caravelle with a parachute would only use it on the shorter runways? After slowing they dropped it on the runway, or where?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2420 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

There was a thread on this 4 years ago. The thread never addressed the Caravelle having a chute, it only talked about other aircraft that also used chutes. Interesting photo though.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/3263333/


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Photo © Jan Olav Martinsen



[Edited 2012-01-04 14:43:45]


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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24786 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

Quoting timz (Thread starter):
Which models had the parachute option?

I think the braking parachute was standard on the Caravelle III and V!-N, not optional, since those early models lacked thrust reversers. The VI-R, like the 20 operated by UA, was the first Caravelle model with thrust reversers.


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As a sidenote, the Tupolev 104, the first commercial jet in service (other than the ill-fated Comet 1) also had a braking parachute (and also no thrust reversers).


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User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

The Caravelle III and VI-N, the early types, had the tail parachute. The Caravelle VI-R was then equipped with thrust reversers making the parachute un-necassary.

User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 1624 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3812 times:

What was the procedure for repacking the parachute after arrival and how long would it take? Also, did the aircraft drop the parachute on the runway, drag it to the gate, or was there some sort of retraction mechanism?


B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently onlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2284 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Quoting N243NW (Reply 4):

The jet blast probably kept the drag chute inflated, especially with tail-mounted engines. So, ground contact should not have happened.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinedxing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3727 times:

But what if there were a good crosswind blowing? That could make for some interesting taxiing issues.

User currently offlinen234nw From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3543 times:
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Quoting N243NW (Reply 4):
What was the procedure for repacking the parachute after arrival and how long would it take?

I'm fairly certain these were replaced with a spare, packed chute for each flight - and then re-packed as time allowed. Another forum mentioned spare chute canisters would often be carried for use at destinations that did not have the means to repack the parachute.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Repackaging drag chutes is a bit of an art, you would like well trained people to do that, you don't want a chute that does not deploy when you decide you need to pull one  Wow! . Further, the frame would have plenty of cargo space to hold the roundtrips needed chutes.

Having flown military fighter which had drag chutes you would typically weer to the lee-side at the end of the runway and release the chute there for a follow me car or similar to pick it up, you don't take it with you on the taxiway as it can start collecting taxi lights   .



Non French in France
User currently offlineptrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3904 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3421 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 8):

Well, I don't think the aircraft on the photo is on the runway.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

Quoting n234nw (Reply 7):
I'm fairly certain these were replaced with a spare, packed chute for each flight...

Use of drag chutes on the Caravelle was a very rare exception. On short and wet or icy runway.

SAS had many Caravelle I, -IA and -III (all eventually modified to -III). I have watched tonnes of landings, but never seen a drag chute.

The Caravelle had a proportionally big wing, low wing loading, and huge trailing edge flaps which extended to 60 degrees - but tiny little spoilers. And twice as many main wheels as DC-9, B727, B737. So I would assume that under extreme conditions it could be a challenge to get some grip on the wheel brakes. And therefore the brake chute was used as a last resort on a difficult day.

The drag chute was very likely there as much for an aborted takeoff near V1 speed on a contaminated runway.

Also anti-skid wheel brakes were probably not present (I don't know), but in any case not as developed as they are today.

From my experience as passenger on SAS and Finnair Caravelles the wheel brakes were as good as on any modern plane today, but then I don't remember any landing on a contaminated runway.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24786 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

Funny I well remember witnessing a SAS Caravelle using its chute at FBU - virtually identical except little more snowy day to the photo in reply #1.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTCASAlert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

How much extra braking power did the drag chute on the Caravelle give the aircraft? I wouldn't have thought it would have given a massive amount of extra braking power, was it particularly noticeable?

My friend saw the chute used on an AF Caravelle at LHR once in the wet.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 12):
How much extra braking power did the drag chute on the Caravelle give the aircraft? I wouldn't have thought it would have given a massive amount of extra braking power, was it particularly noticeable?

A chute helps with the initial braking from touch down speed to say 2/3 of that speed, there is is pretty effective, you feel its effect pretty well at least in a 15t fighter when deployed. A 44t MTOW, 30t landing weight Caravelle should have a somewhat larger chute so it shouldn't be so bad.

Once there you have much less energy to tame (a V^2 thing) and your brakes are fresh so it helps.



Non French in France
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2309 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3071 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 13):
A chute helps with the initial braking from touch down speed to say 2/3 of that speed, there is is pretty effective, you feel its effect pretty well at least in a 15t fighter when deployed. A 44t MTOW, 30t landing weight Caravelle should have a somewhat larger chute so it shouldn't be so bad.

Once there you have much less energy to tame (a V^2 thing) and your brakes are fresh so it helps.


Brakes generate braking force at a basically constant rate, no matter the wheel speed (at least until they heat up). Parachutes, OTOH, generate drag in proportion to the square of the velocity. Assuming a 20ft diameter chute (seems approximately right given the Caravelle’s 29ft fin height and the picture above), sea level, a Cd in the neighborhood of .9 (reasonable for a chute), and a deployment speed of 125kts (probably a bit on the low side), you'd produce about 15,000lbs of drag initially. On a Caravelle, that would work out to about .2G at likely landing weights. At 40kts, you'd only get about a tenth that, so even that extreme a crosswind would not be generating a huge amount of side force.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2727 times:

Quoting N243NW (Reply 4):
What was the procedure for repacking the parachute after arrival and how long would it take? Also, did the aircraft drop the parachute on the runway, drag it to the gate, or was there some sort of retraction mechanism?

That was the flight engineers job, this aircraft had a 3 man cockpit. But i'm sure the ground engineers handled this if it was at a main base.

SAS also used the parachute sometimes when landing in DUB. Back in the 60's the runway was much shorter.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2685 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 8):
Having flown military fighter which had drag chutes

Out of curiosity, what types did you fly?



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 16):
Out of curiosity, what types did you fly?

With chutes, delta winged fighters. They were a bit tricky to land (speed instability) but once you touched down the real work started. Getting them to stop before you you were out of runway was an art. As "good" pilots did not pull chutes       you only pulled them during conversion training and later when icy.



Non French in France
User currently onlinePihero From France, joined Jan 2005, 4388 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2609 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Reply 17):
you only pulled them during conversion training and later when icy.

... and you'd pull them as rarely as possible because you'd still want to be friends with the mechanics who 'd have to re-install the damn thingy in the intimate vicinity of the engine exhaust ( fumes, heted gases and hot metal would not endear you to the ground pogs ).  



Contrail designer
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2800 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2601 times:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 18):
... and you'd pull them as rarely as possible because you'd still want to be friends with the mechanics who 'd have to re-install the damn thingy in the intimate vicinity of the engine exhaust ( fumes, heted gases and hot metal would not endear you to the ground pogs ).  

Absolutely    . BTW with "good" pilots not pulling chutes I am not inferring I was a good pilot, rather that this was a bit of a pride thing, you only pulled the chute if you felt you were in real trouble as the tower would not be happy (had to send the car out) the mechanics would not be happy (had to re-install the damned thing) and the buddies at the Wing would say "so had to pull a chute eh..., it was not that slippery when I landed    ..."



Non French in France
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3573 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 19):
Absolutely    . BTW with "good" pilots not pulling chutes I am not inferring I was a good pilot, rather that this was a bit of a pride thing, you only pulled the chute if you felt you were in real trouble as the tower would not be happy (had to send the car out) the mechanics would not be happy (had to re-install the damned thing) and the buddies at the Wing would say "so had to pull a chute eh..., it was not that slippery when I landed    ..."

Hahaha some things in aviation will never change...  



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinephotophil From Germany, joined Apr 2011, 196 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

hmmm ... we can maybe have a look next saturday as we will be visiting a caravelle during the a.net meeting at ARN

PHILIP



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