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Constant Speed Drive Technical Reference  
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9741 times:

G'day All,

I recently found the personal website of an Aircraft Engineer from Greece (A'net member?),

http://www.k-makris.gr/

Of particular interest was an excellent page on the inner workings of the hydraulic Constant Speed Drive (CSD) mechanism used in the Integrated Drive Generator (IDG) as seen on many commercial types.

http://www.k-makris.gr/AircraftComponents/CSD/C.S.D.htm

http://www.k-makris.gr/AircraftComponents/CSD/csd_shcem-2.gif

http://www.k-makris.gr/AircraftComponents/CSD/csd_shcem-2.gif

http://www.k-makris.gr/AircraftComponents/CSD/csd_over.gif

http://www.k-makris.gr/AircraftComponents/CSD/csd_over.gif

The actual mechanism is far more complex and clever than I first imagined. I was always under the impression that the variable / fixed hydraulic pump combination was the only component responsible for achieving the constant output RPM. However, it appears that the variable / fixed hydraulic pump combination acts on a planetary gear-set and only pumps oil when there is a speed difference between the input and output sides.

If the input and output speeds are similar, there is a direct drive through the planetary gear-set. This approach makes a lot of sense, for if there was only a variable / fixed hydraulic pump combination as I first thought, such a mechanism would still need to pump an appreciable amount of oil for the direct drive (input speed equal to output speed) situation, which would of course entail the IDG consuming much more power.

Regards, JetMech


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1576 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

The CSD is a really cool design. You've gotta check those "In" and "Rise" temps! What is the schematic off of? 737-200? Looks Boeing.

The CSD Disconnect is an interesting feature too, it "screws itself out of a job" and can only be reset on the ground so if you're gonna do it, make sure you really want to do it!



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9521 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
What is the schematic off of? 737-200? Looks Boeing.

Not sure what aircraft, but that's straight from a Boeing System Schematic Manual...that layout, formatting, and fonts are pretty unmistakable.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
The CSD Disconnect is an interesting feature too, it "screws itself out of a job" and can only be reset on the ground so if you're gonna do it, make sure you really want to do it!

This is fairly common for generator disconnects...Boeing IDG's and VFSG's work the same way.

Tom.


User currently offlineB747FE From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2004, 230 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 9384 times:

Quoting jetmech (Thread starter):
However, it appears that the variable / fixed hydraulic pump combination acts on a planetary gear-set and only pumps oil when there is a speed difference between the input and output sides.

Correct!

Underdrive mode = input speed higher than required = hydraulic unit works a a motor.
Overdrive mode = input speed lower than required = hydraulic unit works as a pump.
When in straight through mode, the generator is then driven directly through the differential. (Wobbler perpendicular to the pumping pistons)
On a JT9, at around 65% N2, sometimes you can actually recognize when the CSD is in straight through because there is a slight load oscillation between generators.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
What is the schematic off of? 737-200?

  

Regards,
B747FE.



"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1576 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9359 times:

Quoting B747FE (Reply 3):
On a JT9, at around 65% N2, sometimes you can actually recognize when the CSD is in straight through because there is a slight load oscillation between generators.

That's just a cool observation!



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offline737tdi From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 791 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9354 times:
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Not to be overly picky but the use of IDG in this case is not really correct. In this case the CSD and Generator are separate units where as an IDG is the combination of CSD/Generator in one unit. Good stuff either way. I sure know I prefer IDG's when it comes to replacement.

User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 9189 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
What is the schematic off of? 737-200? Looks Boeing.

It's definitely a 737 and definitely not an NG. The overhead panel sketch gives it away.



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8990 times:

Quoting B747FE (Reply 3):
On a JT9, at around 65% N2, sometimes you can actually recognize when the CSD is in straight through because there is a slight load oscillation between generators.

Was this N2 typical of cruise conditions? Seems like it may be associated more with idle or lower power settings. I would have imagined that you would want the straight through (direct drive) condition to occur at an N2 close to that associated with typical cruise power settings    .

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineB747FE From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2004, 230 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8974 times:

Quoting jetmech (Reply 7):
Was this N2 typical of cruise conditions?

No, just above idle thrust. (N2 in cruise is around 20 to 25% higher)
On the P&W engines, I used to see this during the taxi out.
On aeroplanes with RR (211-524 with IDG) or GE CF6 it was during descent, but I don't remember the exact speed. (Should be at faster speed than the JT9D)

Quoting jetmech (Reply 7):
I would have imagined that you would want the straight through (direct drive) condition to occur at an N2 close to that associated with typical cruise power settings

Sure, but either way even if it was at cruise thrust setting it was a very narrow speed range in which the oscillations happened (+/- 2 or 3% max) and it didn't necessarily happened on all engines at the same time.
Needless to say the CSD's didn't really spend a lot of time in straight through mode.

Regards,
B747FE.



"Flying is more than a sport and more than a job; flying is pure passion and desire, which fill a lifetime"
User currently offlineIFixPlanes From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8946 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
...What is the schematic off of? 737-200? Looks Boeing. ...

It is out of the 737-3/4/5 AMM chapter 24-11-00
SSM drawing looks a bit different.



never tell an engineer he is wrong ;-)
User currently offlineaviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 5):
In this case the CSD and Generator are separate units where as an IDG is the combination of CSD/Generator in one unit.

To Illustrate the matter I' ve uploaded a few photos that I made at work for PR purpose into an album.

It contains a typical B73 setup, the shiny bit is the Generator and the black bit the CSD together forming a huge lumb  
An A320 IDG.
And an internal view of a F70/100 IDG.



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
User currently offlinejetmech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8830 times:

Quoting B747FE (Reply 8):
Needless to say the CSD's didn't really spend a lot of time in straight through mode.

Certainly. No doubt N2 would also vary somewhat for different flights and during a flight, so any benefits of operating in direct drive would only manifest for a small portion of the total flight time.

Quoting aviopic (Reply 10):

Nice photos. The third one appears to show two CSD's in the same casing. If so, was this for redundancy?

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8802 times:

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
737-200? Looks Boeing.

Looks exactly like the B732 AMM Schematic & Training manual.



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineIFixPlanes From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 239 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8755 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Looks exactly like the B732 AMM Schematic & Training manual.

No, not exactly, but you have to lock closer  
As i already wrote in reply # 9:
It is out of B737-300/400/500 AMM 24-11-00.



never tell an engineer he is wrong ;-)
User currently offlinetitanmiller From United States of America, joined May 2006, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8754 times:

Absolutely fascinating! Thanks for sharing your discovery.

User currently offlineaviopic From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 2681 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8735 times:

Quoting jetmech (Reply 11):
The third one appears to show two CSD's in the same casing.

Nope.

http://www.honders.net/tmp/FO100_IDG_Dwg_2.jpg



The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
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