ALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 988 posts, RR: 3 Posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3656 times:
Ok, I've got a question. But first a self-gloss... got my private pilot certificate yesterday at 43 hours TT. Passed the oral and the checkride with no problems.
I have a nephew that really, really wants to go flying. Every time he's around me and sees an airplane he asks if that's the plane I fly. He's 4 years old, so I have a few questions:
1) Any experience with a headset that would fit a child's head?
2) I'm afraid he's not tall enough to see out the window in the back of a 172S. Now, I've never even sat in the back of a 172 (maybe I should do that once or twice) but I assume the windows aren't very low - they seem to be about the same height as the pilot's side window, although maybe a touch lower due to the angle of the cabin and windows. Are there legal 'booster seats' he could sit on?
3) Any experience with taking kids flying? I fly out of a controlled class-D airport - would it be wise to alert the tower when taxiing that a small child is in the plane, and I might be coming right back in to land in case he gets freaked out? I doubt he will, but you never know.
Basically, any advice would be welcome. I would only take him and his parents flying on a day where the air is pretty smooth.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5610 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3554 times:
Sporty's used to have a juvenille sized David Clark headseat in their catalog...
I would just add that, if it were me, I'd wait until I had a few more hours on the clock before I took someone up with me. I didn't take any passengers up with me until I had about 120 hours logged
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4871 posts, RR: 21 Reply 2, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3474 times:
I'm not the most experienced person to answer your questions, but this is my experience.
I've taken up my grandchildren as young as age 6.
The flight school / FBO where I fly has some very small headsets which I can rent, but I did buy one 'child size' Dave Clark after a few flights.
I fly LSA aircraft with only two seats and a stick. We had a long serious conversation before agreeing to the flight. The younger boy wanted to go up after seeing his older siblings get a chance, and hearing them describe the flight. A same age granddaughter also felt the same way.
The first time I took up my 14 year old granddaughter and my 12 year old grandson, I did tell the tower that I might need an immediate return because I was taking up a person who had never flown in a small aircraft. Even though we are on the edge of Class B airspace, they were very understanding. (I would say the same thing if my 87 year old father wanted to go up - he has never been on an airplane - ever.)
For the three younger children, and my mid-30s daughter who is a bit skittish about flying, I rented a plane for an entire day, and flew to a nice small uncontrolled airport actually closer to my/their home. We did a family day, with me taking 9 people up on short flights.
The view isn't great for the smaller kids, but the Remos side windows offer a good view. The younger kids liked seeing the ground come up close as we came over the runway and flared. Though they were unhappy they could not see over the nose.
I had about 200 hours before I felt comfortable taking up the younger grandchildren, about 100 hours before I took up anyone but my wife who has made a lot of flights in small aircraft.
I have rented larger aircraft - C-172, C-182, C-206 with a safety pilot in the right seat to allow me to take up more people.
The younger kids don't appreciate it as much. They like watching the stick move, and are starting to understand the relationship between stick movements and the instruments and the aircraft movements. Sitting in the back seat isn't as exciting for them.
HaveBlue From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1981 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3457 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1): I would just add that, if it were me, I'd wait until I had a few more hours on the clock before I took someone up with me.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2): I had about 200 hours before I felt comfortable taking up the younger grandchildren
I agree 100%!! The kids aren't old enough to make that decision, their parents are the general public and the general public thinks that once you're a pilot, you're a pilot. They don't understand that even after getting your license you are not allowed to be compensated in any way until you get your Commercial license... and there is a reason for that, you don't have the experience yet.
I'm a low time private pilot myself, and though I've taken up many passengers I never took up children, including my eager-to-go daughter, and I do believe I'm a good pilot.
Congrats on getting your license, that is awesome! But I would seriously caution against taking small ones up until your experience level goes up, no matter how good of a pilot you may think you are.
njxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3451 times:
I fly once a year for the young eagles program, so I fly a whole bunch of kids, probably 60 last year, and only one got freaked out, and that happened before he even got strapped in....you'll be surprised how easily kids fly.
However:
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2): I had about 200 hours before I felt comfortable taking up the younger grandchildren, about 100 hours before I took up anyone but my wife who has made a lot of flights in small aircraft.
I'm going to third this one, it may be a little too soon. I wouldn't take up kids til more like 150 hours, but I was after a well rounded proficiency. Find out if there is a young eagles event happening near you, take him, but you won't be able to ride along, as we fly only kids.
Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter): 1) Any experience with a headset that would fit a child's head?
We don't fly with headsets at these events, the pilot only has a headset, also makes it easier to drown out any unwanted interruptions in the critical phases.
Alert the tower if something happens, just as you would any other event. I wouldn't notify the tower for anything like that.
Also, if you want to take him, just take a second pilot with, I would ride along on that in a heartbeat.
ALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 988 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3378 times:
Thanks guys - I appreciate the input. I'm actually surprised at how many of you waited until 150 or 200 hours before flying others. I've already taken some immediate family and some close friends up, including a few for a short sightseeing trip (no further than 15nm from the airport) at night after getting night current. Granted, winds were calm and nothing was out of the ordinary, but I'm comfortable even with gusting 20kt winds with a 10 knot crosswind component, because most of the time I went flying with my instructor, those were the conditions. In fact, my one lesson covering landings was done in gusting crosswinds. It sure made normal landings easy.
I'm assuming most of the caution is coming not from the standpoint of normal, typical flight but from anything unusual that might happen. Would it be fair to ask what are the chances of you having more experience in those unusual happenings at 150 hours? If we're talking electrical loss, vacuum loss, flat tire, engine issues, comm loss, etc, my understanding is that those happen infrequently enough that I wouldn't be more "experienced" in that area even after 150 hrs.
Don't take my statements above as me ignoring your advice or fighting back. The only reason I post what I posted above is that it seemed like a non-issue to me, as well as to my instructor and the examiner who said "now go back and take somebody for a ride!". My (gold seal) instructor told me (and I realize some might just say this as a matter of practice just to keep you coming back during training) that in his 15 years of instructing, I was the quickest and most comfortable student he's seen.
I know everybody thinks they are the exception to the rule (and I try to remind myself that I naturally, humanly speaking, think of myself that way), and I know I am, statistically speaking, one of the most dangerous people alive at the moment. I just hadn't heard anybody say "now, don't take people flying until you have 150 hours", and I'm interested as to why I hear that from several people here but nowhere else.
Anyway, I'll check with the FBO and see if they have a child-sized headset. I'd rather not subject his ears to 30 minutes of unprotected engine noise.
Quoting njxc500 (Reply 4): Also, if you want to take him, just take a second pilot with, I would ride along on that in a heartbeat.
Not a bad suggestion - I'll definitely keep that in mind as an option.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
pilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3015 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3359 times:
As others have said, get some experience first. Dealing with a puking kid in an airplane isn't fun and you need to be comfortable. You probably haven't flown much with the aircraft close to max gross or with the cg aft and it is different. Also, have mom or dad ride along to deal with the kid while you fly. Good student or not, you had that instructor sitting next to you to fall back on. I would set your personal minimums very high for a while. In 50 hours there are still a lot of things you haven't encountered and having your attention diverted isn't the time to gain that experience.
I did a lot of "sight seeing rides" as a CFI. Keep it short. A 5 year old attention span is about 30 minutes at best. I usually did these flights in a DA-20 because it was easier for the kids to look out the front and they got a kick out of the stick controls. My sister is short and she showed me that not being able to see out the front is a bad thing. After the first ride in a Cessna she brought along a seat cushion to see over the glare shield.
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1164 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3269 times:
I'm a low time pilot as well. Just under 5000 hrs. Being "low time" is all relative.
I flew most of my family and friends around the area the day after I got my private. None were youngsters, but I felt comfortable enough to fly them around on a nice day. If you feel comfortable, you should do it as well.
As far as the kid goes, use his car seat / booster seat and take him around the patch. I'd get him some kid sized ear phones, not a kid sized headset at first and someone in the backseat with him. He'll have a blast, you will too.
If you're comfortable with it, do it. Your examiner wouldn't have signed you off if he didn't think you were capable with flying passengers around.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 11033 posts, RR: 72 Reply 8, posted (4 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3247 times:
Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter): 1) Any experience with a headset that would fit a child's head?
I took my 4 and 6 year old flying in a 172 with regular David Clark's...it was fine for the 6 year old, too big for the 4 year old but if he held it with his hand it was OK.
Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter): 2) I'm afraid he's not tall enough to see out the window in the back of a 172S. Now, I've never even sat in the back of a 172 (maybe I should do that once or twice) but I assume the windows aren't very low - they seem to be about the same height as the pilot's side window, although maybe a touch lower due to the angle of the cabin and windows. Are there legal 'booster seats' he could sit on?
Car boosters are legal. If you can get the kind that use the vehicle's seatbelt as the primary, rather than their own harness, they're far lighter and easier to install in a GA aircraft.
My guys loved it. They didn't "get it" that it was just us flying until they actually saw the airplane and counted the seats, then they were thrilled (they're still small enough to be excited about commercial flights though...).
Quoting ALTF4 (Thread starter): I fly out of a controlled class-D airport - would it be wise to alert the tower when taxiing that a small child is in the plane, and I might be coming right back in to land in case he gets freaked out?
No real need to tell them there's a small child (though you certainly can), but the advance notice that you may be returning quickly is always appreciated.
Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 5): I'm assuming most of the caution is coming not from the standpoint of normal, typical flight but from anything unusual that might happen. Would it be fair to ask what are the chances of you having more experience in those unusual happenings at 150 hours?
It's not so much about having experienced something unusual as that you're more comfortable with the normal stuff so that, if something unusual does happen, you've got enough bandwidth to take care of it without compromising the normal stuff. If you're very low time and typical, you're still spending a lot of brainpower to think about what a more experienced pilot is doing by reflex/muscle memory.
In my case, I just took a CFI along.
Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 5): Anyway, I'll check with the FBO and see if they have a child-sized headset. I'd rather not subject his ears to 30 minutes of unprotected engine noise.
If they don't have a headset, dig up some disposable ear plugs. They're comfortable, effective, and will make the whole experience more pleasant in the absence of a headset.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2265 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3066 times:
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 3): Congrats on getting your license, that is awesome! But I would seriously caution against taking small ones up until your experience level goes up, no matter how good of a pilot you may think you are.
Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 5): Thanks guys - I appreciate the input. I'm actually surprised at how many of you waited until 150 or 200 hours before flying others.
I'll fourth or fifth this, whatever we're on now. In the 7 or so years I worked at an FBO I remember seeing a number of people do the same thing you are suggesting. No reflection at all on your piloting abilities, but some people make decisions at 50 hours that someone with 200 or so would not make. I remember a new pilot buying a C-152 and putting a bench seat in the back so his kids could come with him. At the time I thought that was pretty unsafe.
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 7): As far as the kid goes, use his car seat / booster seat and take him around the patch. I'd get him some kid sized ear phones, not a kid sized headset at first and someone in the backseat with him. He'll have a blast, you will too.
A good friend of mine owns a C-170 and takes his two kids both under 5 with he and his wife on day trips. It's not uncommon for him to send photos of his kids in car seats and wearing DC headsets. Sometimes the kids are sleeping so sometimes they care that they're up at 5,000 feet, sometimes they sleep.
I've been out of the game for a while, can you still get an adapter for regular $10 headphones used on portable electronic devices so they get the audio but can't talk back? Seems like the cheep way to go.
KELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 5610 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3056 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9): I've been out of the game for a while, can you still get an adapter for regular $10 headphones used on portable electronic devices so they get the audio but can't talk back? Seems like the cheep way to go.
Yeah, but you don't get the important part: the 24 dB passive hearing protection (especially important for kids). Remember, some GA planes have noise levels well over 120 dB inside (enough to cause permanent hearing damage for little ones!).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5810 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2821 times:
A nephew of mine had his first flight at age 4. It was in a 50+ years old wood and cloth thing, a Stinson I think. With cables and all stuff running through the cabin. The kid was alone on the back seat.
Dad instructed the child carefully not to touch anything, only to look out of the window. The flight went eventlessly.
Some time after landing the kid suddenly said: "Look daddy what I found on the plane", while he was trying to fetch something from his pocket.
Daddy went mad and shouted: "I told you not to touch anything". The kid started whining. Daddy: "Give me immediately what you took on the plane!!!".
And after some struggle and an ocean of tears he fetched from his pocket .... an almost dead spider!
The end of the story is that a few weeks later it was discovered that the kid needed quite strong glasses. He didn't see much beyond ten inches. He probably saw nothing on the ground, only a spider in front of his nose.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
e38 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 163 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2540 times:
ALTF4, congratulations on earning your Private Pilot certificate.
I think you have gotten great advice from all the replies above. Personally, I think a four year old child is a little young to enjoy an orientation flight, but it depends on the maturity of the individual person, so a short orientation ride (20 - 30 minutes or less) might be appropriate. I think six to eight years old is probably better, but, hey, if the kid is four years old and is already interested in airplanes, and it is OK with his parents, then go for it.
Whenever I give orientation flights to friends and family (non-aviators), I try to adhere to a few basic points to minimize risk factors.
- No "trainings" maneuvers; i.e. no touch and go landings, no steep turns, no stall maneuvers, no slow flight. Whenever I have a friend or family member aboard, for safety reasons I make one takeoff and one landing to a full stop. There are a lot of issues involved with takeoffs and landings and they are all concentrated during a short period of time during a touch and go. A touch and go is a training maneuver; not an orientation event.
As for steep turns, stalls, and slow flight--as much as we think these may be really "cool" maneuvers, they can be very unnerving to non-pilots and can quickly turn an exciting and rewarding flight into a very bad, negative experience. Also, pulling back on the yoke to get the feel of slight G's (i.e. that roller coaster feeling) is pretty neat for pilots, but can make non-pilots queasy really quick. Steep turns, stalls, and slow flight are also training maneuvers.
- There is nothing wrong with flying over someone's house, school, business, etc., but avoid making multiple circles or passes. This can also be somewhat unnerving (i.e., nauseous).
- Keep the flight short (20 - 30 minutes maximum). A series of short flights over a period of time is better than a longer flight (45 - 60 minutes) and will keep the person's interest longer (i.e. they will look forward to the next flight).
Just use common sense, good judgment, and hopefully it will be a fun and rewarding event for you and your passengers.
N243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1321 posts, RR: 28 Reply 13, posted (4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2496 times:
I would agree that there have been a lot of good points raised in this thread. I recently took up some young kids that had flown in a small plane before, and one that had never flown in any airplane before.
-Notifying the tower that you may be immediately inbound after takeoff isn't a bad idea. You may also want to request a downwind departure, no matter which direction you're departing, since that puts you in a better situation for landing immediately if something comes up. You would be surprised, though - a lot of young kids are more excited than scared, and often a lot of the nervousness subsides once airborne (it's the anticipation that's the worst - at least for me it was). Obviously, your results may differ.
-Keep the turns somewhat shallower than normal (maybe 20 degrees instead of 30) and keep them coordinated. Uncoordinated flight is a lot easier to feel in the backseat. I also echo the others' sentiments about training maneuvers - they're cool to us, but not necessarily to the young ones.
-If possible, fly in the morning, when the air is generally calmer. This is especially true for summer days where convective turbulence develops in the afternoon from the sun heating up the ground all day. The cooler temperatures also help prevent nausea and airsickness.
-Keep the flight short and at a relatively low altitude. That way there's more to see, and kids get tired and restless after a while. Unless they are major airplane nerds like I was, they'll probably spend 99% of the time looking outside, not at the instruments.
-By all means, have some sort of ear protection for each passenger in some form or another. Young ears are the most sensitive to damage and discomfort.
-Be prepared to answer questions and talk a bit about what you're doing or going to do, but let your passengers know before the flight (as part of the safety briefing) that whenever you need to hear ATC or talk on the radio, you'll put your index finger in the air as part of a "hush" gesture. It works well for me.
Best wishes and happy flying! Congrats on the new certificate - you're now empowered to spread the joy of flight to your family and friends. We need more young aviators.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2225 times:
A bit late into the thread but I'll be among the few to say I would fly with them even if you don't have too much flight time. If you're not flying frequently then IMO its best to do while you're still fresh from the check ride and not rusty. Of course only do it under ideal conditions (perfect weather, good plane, etc etc). I've known plenty of old pilots who while they may have a few thousand hours they still can't fly worth a damn (I'm talking about the stereotypical 'ole Billy Bob Pilot with his '60s V-tail Bonanza that only flies it one or two hours every few months and never went beyond getting his PPL)
N243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1321 posts, RR: 28 Reply 15, posted (3 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2166 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 14): If you're not flying frequently then IMO its best to do while you're still fresh from the check ride and not rusty.
Couldn't agree more. What you may lack in experience with a fresh certificate in hand you often make up for in currency. I was always much more prepared for an engine failure, more proficient in short field landings, better at doing a thorough preflight, and more in tune with the aircraft - among other things - right after my check rides as opposed to 20 hours later. I'd much rather have to deal with an emergency right after I had been practicing them extensively for a check ride as opposed to...well, now, for example. I'm not saying I'm currently a bad pilot, but I've never been more "on my game" than with a fresh certificate in my hand, due to the effort involved in obtaining said certificate.
greg3322 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 180 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (3 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1395 times:
I purchased a pair of Pilot Communication children headsets (in pink) for each of my daughters. I always waited for a calm, clear days, and kept the flights short and without a lot of manuvering. I brought a booster seat for them to sit on so they could see out the back windows.
redflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4078 posts, RR: 32 Reply 17, posted (3 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1225 times:
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1): I would just add that, if it were me, I'd wait until I had a few more hours on the clock before I took someone up with me. I didn't take any passengers up with me until I had about 120 hours logged
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 2): I had about 200 hours before I felt comfortable taking up the younger grandchildren,
I took my 5 year old daughter up when I had no more than 60 hours (got my ticket at ~50 TT). Frankly, based on my own experience as well as others that I know, freshly minted pilots tend to be the most conscientious safety-wise, even if inexperienced. I've heard anecdotal stories of most mishaps happening when pilots are in the 200 - 500 hour range because that's when they've flown enough to become comfortable in the cockpit and complacent. Over 500 hours their experience tends to give them an upper hand. But, like I said, it's anecdotal and I don't know if there is any truth to it.
My suggestion would be that if you do take "youngins" up then keep the trips short and near the home airport if you have any concerns.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1165 times:
Quoting redflyer (Reply 17): Frankly, based on my own experience as well as others that I know, freshly minted pilots tend to be the most conscientious safety-wise, even if inexperienced. I've heard anecdotal stories of most mishaps happening when pilots are in the 200 - 500 hour range because that's when they've flown enough to become comfortable in the cockpit and complacent. Over 500 hours their experience tends to give them an upper hand. But, like I said, it's anecdotal and I don't know if there is any truth to it.
Agreed. I know when I was a newly minted pilot I was extremely anal with my preflights and overly cautious, maybe too much so. Now that I have close to a thousand hours I have relaxed quite a bit, not to say that I am cutting corners, of course not, but I'm a lot less paranoid, but now if something were to happen I now have some experience to fall back on.
sprout5199 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1673 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (3 months 4 days ago) and read 1064 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 8): Car boosters are legal. If you can get the kind that use the vehicle's seatbelt as the primary, rather than their own harness, they're far lighter and easier to install in a GA aircraft.
I took my daughters up when I was taking lessons, with my instructor in the seat next to me. Both of them loved it but when we were landing, my youngest started crying. My instructor looked at me and asked why she was crying, so I asked her. She was crying cause she couldnt see out the windows. We made her sit on her butt when taking off and landing, but she could kneel on the seat to see out the window the rest of the time.
Another time a friend with a C-180 taildragger took us up, said watch, and did a neg g shallow dive. The look on their faces was pricless.
If kids want to go, take them. But make some rules for them and yourself to follow. If you are not sure how they will take it, once around the pattern and land, taxi back to the FBO, and then decide if a longer flight is called for.
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