mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4237 times:
Just thought I'd throw this out there.........I wonder why some airlines require a 4 year college degree as part of their qualifications to be hired as a pilot? It doesn't matter what the degree is in.....it doesn't even have to be related to engineering or anything like that.....it can be in basket weaving as long as it's a 4 year degree.
Now, if a prospective pilot has many, many hours and experience in a wide variety of a/c types, shouldn't that, at some point, trump the 4 year degree?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4199 times:
My opinion, yes.
The only airlines I know of requiring a degree are majors. It's just one more filter to ensure they get what they want. I know for a fact it keeps some good pilots stuck at regionals.
KaiTakfan From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1585 posts, RR: 7 Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4193 times:
No, 10,000 hours of multi engine turbine PIC wont change the requirements at Delta Air Lines when it comes to pilot requirments. They want a four year degree, plain and simple. Every carrier has its own values and sometimes they make little to no sense. For example Emirates currently will not hire a pilot with a four year degree and 5,000 hours of CRJ-200 captain time because it does not meet a specific gross weight requirement they have set. However a pilot flying the very same type, just the -700 series is good to go. Bottom line its their train set and their rules. If you meet the requirments, great... if not, either go get the requirments satisfied or look elsewhere. Hope this makes sense.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4136 times:
Oh, I understand how they work and the fact that it is what it is. What I don't understand is why the requirement is there or, better yet, why it can't be waived? I'd rather have someone that KNEW how to fly the plane rather than someone that knew how to weave baskets.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
jetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2020 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4091 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 3): I'd rather have someone that KNEW how to fly the plane rather than someone that knew how to weave baskets.
DL and ASA had a presentation at my school discussing pilot hiring and requirements. They told us that the reason they like seeing a degree in anything is that it proves to them that you took the initiative to go above what is required. They want you to be a well rounded person as well as a good pilot. How having a degree makes you a well rounded person I have no idea, there are plenty of dopes with degrees out there but that is what they told us.
Blue
Professor Foltz: You push down on that yolk, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yolk, the houses get bigger.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 4061 times:
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4): They told us that the reason they like seeing a degree in anything is that it proves to them that you took the initiative to go above what is required.
That makes sense if you were going for DL in the first place, but if you started in general aviation and moved up to OO and then wanted to move up, again, your choices are limited by the degree requirement.
Just the fact that someone has more than enough hours, in many types of a/c.......have an instructor's license, commercial ticket, etc., should show that they were also going above what is required.
Just seems rather "elitist" to me.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
seven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 295 posts, RR: 26 Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4042 times:
Elitist would be requiring a Harvard MBA.
Requiring a college degree is not. BTW, even airlines that dont require a college degree would prefer it.
My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 3): I'd rather have someone that KNEW how to fly the plane rather than someone that knew how to weave baskets.
That is precisely the sort of attitude they are filtering out.
Only an uneducated person would think that about college graduates. And what makes you think they can't find both education and flying experience in the same applicant?
Oh, and if peoples' lives depend on the outcome, elitism is no vice. Lots of people will tell you what herbs and vitamins will keep you healthy. Most of us would prefer to go to an educated doctor if the issue seems serious. Oh, by the way, they are proposing to pay you five times as much as you will ever earn in general aviation - AND you are going to wear their Company logo on your person in front of their customers.
Don't have the college degree? No problem. There are jobs that don't require it.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
CosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2211 posts, RR: 17 Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3976 times:
There used to be a General Knowledge test that some airlines gave just to see what you knew AWAY from aviation. Again well rounded.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3955 times:
darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 979 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3922 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
Only an uneducated person would think that about college graduates. And what makes you think they can't find both education and flying experience in the same applicant?
I'm very educated and I think precisely that. While there are plenty of serious professionals out there with a decent level of education, if this were actually a relevant need for the industry (and is most assuredly not), the degree required would at least be tangentially related to operating an aircraft. Heck, I'd even take Meteorology. But to just be open ended about it? If we're going the 'well rounded' route, why not require them to be masons as well? No, Mayor is quite correct in his assessment here.
As it relates to the topic, no, there is no legitimate reason why one needs any higher education, (apart from what is required for a Commercial Certification and Type Rating) for this profession. Aviation in general is like that, as most of the professions involved require extensive certification anyway. A Dispatcher or MX Tech can have all the degrees in the world, or none at all, and they still need to pass the same tests to work. So it is for Pilots too.
However, it does serve to filter out a lot of applicants, of which there is no shortage of, and likely won't be for the foreseeable future.
Posting without Talent is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3908 times:
That college teaches only basket weaving? Well that is not the case.
Further, it has been amply demonstrated for generations that comtempt for education is not a quality one wants in employees who will require staggeringly expensive training, and in whom the company is going to risk their pecuniary liability and their reputation.
Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 10): there is no legitimate reason why one needs any higher education
In training airline pilots I have encountered many who could not understand simple (very simple) equations in their pilot handbooks. Perhaps we need to dumb it down?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3868 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11): In training airline pilots I have encountered many who could not understand simple (very simple) equations in their pilot handbooks.
And what education level did they have?
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 11):
That college teaches only basket weaving? Well that is not the case.
You misinterpret my meaning. Basket weaving was just an example, but I think, as others do that if a 4 year college degree is going to be a requirement for employment as a pilot, the degree should at least be relevant to the job at hand. I can see no case, in what I'm talking about where someone, that has several years of experience, more than enough hours and experience in MORE than just general aviation, but experience in RJs, A320s, DC-10s isn't more than qualified IF any sort of 4 year degree is okay. Now, if it was someone, just out of college, with only a newly minted commercial license and very little experience, okay....I get it if they need a 4 year degree to be hired, BUT, the job is flying the plane, after all and the more experience they have, the better.
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7):
That is precisely the sort of attitude they are filtering out.
It's not me or my attitude that we're talking about.....lets make that clear.
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7): Only an uneducated person would think that about college graduates. And what makes you think they can't find both education and flying experience in the same applicant?
I never said they couldn't.......but, why do they necessarily go hand in hand? If your applicant has gobs of experience, why do they need the degree?
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7): Most of us would prefer to go to an educated doctor if the issue seems serious.
Not a good analogy. To be a doctor, you HAVE to have a degree.........you don't need a degree to fly.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3864 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 12): If your applicant has gobs of experience, why do they need the degree?
At times when there is a pilot shortage they may very well waive the requirement for either a lot of experience or for a degree but they are not likely to waive both. In any case, they will like to see something extra on the plus side if there are some negatives...
For the past thirty years there have been more applicants than positions so they've been pretty picky. So in a buyer's market like it has been, they might just see 8000 hours (and no degree) as too much of a good thing. Just as with credit, where if a person has borrowed money from consumer finance companies but never from a bank, lenders have to wonder why. What was this guy doing. What has this guy been doing building up all that time and not getting any more education.
The notion that "it doesn't matter what your degree is in, or where you got it" is not entirely correct. We all recognize the names of good schools. Most of us in training, in flight ops, or in management probably think that the degree is a ticket to get you into the interview but the education is yours. It is your investment in yourself. It is also an indicator to us that you might be useful to the company in more ways than just another number on the seniority list. We have a considerable percentage of our pilots become instructors, check airmen, chief pilots, fleet captains, and any of dozens of other job titles in the flight operations department. Appicants with that sort of potential are very valuable to us.
What does a college degree show us?
● Basic intelligence up to the entry requirements
● Long-term committment to a project or goal
● Self-discipline
● Ability to undestand written and spoken instructions
You could probably add to this list. Just now the majors are still able to get this along with four or five thousand hours and PIC time in some sort of jet. The regionals are SOON going to have a problem finding such people. Ten years from now we might see academy pilot training as is seen elsewhere in the world. (Maybe even sooner.) The European carriers that recruit well educated non-pilots and train them have safety records as good as our system.
Quoting mayor (Reply 12): And what education level did they have?
Four year college degree - twenty years ago. You might argue "a lot of good college did them" but clearly less education isn't going to make that better.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3862 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 13): You might argue "a lot of good college did them" but clearly less education isn't going to make that better.
No, but a higher experience level, might.
When the person I'm referring to was flying for OO as PIC of Brasilias, CRJ200s and CRJ700s, Delta would not even consider hiring him or anyone else at OO, as far as I know, even IF they had a degree.
I can see if an applicant has a 4 year MBA from an established, higher ranked university........snap them up. However, if the applicant has a degree in sewage management (just an example....don't get excited) from a small, unknown college and minimum flying experience and his competition doesn't have that degree but gobs of experience, who is the better applicant, considering if it was possible to waive the degree requirement?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3862 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 14): No, but a higher experience level, might.
Well, these are fifteen to twenty thousand hour pilots I'm talking about. Just how much would it take?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3859 times:
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
Well, these are fifteen to twenty thousand hour pilots I'm talking about. Just how much would it take?
I don't know, but surely there are experienced pilots out there at that level that don't have a 4 year degree.....but, maybe not.....with the Air Force, Navy, etc. requirement that you be an officer to fly and to be an officer you have to have a degree, I suppose most anyone with that level of experience, probably came out of the military.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8492 posts, RR: 43 Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3615 times:
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4): How having a degree makes you a well rounded person I have no idea, there are plenty of dopes with degrees out there but that is what they told us.
In theory it makes sense, but in practice, there are a lot of people with degrees out there. . . many dopes too, I agree.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3603 times:
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4): there are plenty of dopes with degrees out there but that is what they told us.
Yep, and there are many more dopes out there without degrees. That's why some airlines require 4 year degrees ... as do many companies in every other industry out there.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
Northwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3437 times:
Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 8): There used to be a General Knowledge test that some airlines gave just to see what you knew AWAY from aviation. Again well rounded.
Quoting SlamClick (Reply 9): Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 8):
There used to be a General Knowledge test
The Stanine, which, Google
Not really sure if its a test of general knowledge or reaction time, but I know the military and some airlines are apparently using the Wonderlic Test.
mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9152 posts, RR: 14 Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2924 times:
And yet, for any job in inflight, customer service, cargo, etc., all DL requires is a high school education. Look, I know why they do it and it's not just because they want the pilots to be "well rounded", it's because it's the easiest way to weed out all those scads of people that are applying. However, I think they're missing the boat, in some cases, with people that have all the flying experience, but not that 4 year degree. Just seems like they could waive that requirement, in certain cases.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2900 times:
Quoting mayor (Reply 22): Just seems like they could waive that requirement, in certain cases.
... and they do. If they couldn't find the pilots, you bet they'd change the requirement - but they obviously don't have too much of an issue with their current process, so they don't need to change it.
You agree, you know why they do it. They'd rather start with a smaller subset of applications, which statistically will be the kind of the pilots they are looking for, and risk missing that one guy who is a superstar with no degree.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
SlamClick From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 10062 posts, RR: 71 Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2875 times:
In the past there have been exceptions made occasionally. For example, in the late 50s, the USAF had a Cadet program that only required 2 years of college for pilot training to fill the needs of SAC. The Navy had the NavCad program with the same requirement. Many people went through these, got their wings, flew jets, maybe flew transports, ended up getting on at an airline still a bit short of that degree. The Army had only a high school diploma as a requirement. Infrequently HS grads would get fixed-wing training, or get into a fixed-wing qual course after flying helicopters for a time. Occasionally these guys ended up at an airline.
Today that scenario is quite unlikely. With online applications being unable to fill in the part about your Bachelor degree the computer will kick out the application before a human will ever have the chance to say: "Hey, this person looks real good."
If I were running the recruitment I think I might allow for an "equivalent" category and let the applicant dazzle us. If they bear themselves well, express themselves like an educated, cultured person, have some personal achievements behind them, are capable of performing the work we will ask of them, I think I might give them a shot. Two problems though:
1. I'm not in charge of recruitment.
2. Non-college background pilots with four or five thousand hours often do not present themselves as well as college graduates with four or five thousand hours.
And there you are.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
25 SlamClick: Oh and I should also say this. I am frequently horrified at how ignorant college graduates are in what I would consider elementary school academics. U
26 bond007: ... and it's only going to get worse, and unfortunately I fear, more acceptable. I know many teenagers (and some older) that really think that 'texti
27 atct: I work in the industry so I'll leave it at that. What I see are graduates coming from ERAU, UND, and other "universities" that have a commercial-multi
28 mayor: That's much like the people in my orientation class at DL on my first day in '71. Many of them had been to "airline" schools but really didn't know m
29 bond007: I don't necessarily disagree, but the key part of your sentence is "didn't know much more". If they knew just a little bit more, and otherwise were e
30 pilotpip: I don't think this is unique to the airline industry. I have plenty of friends in the business world who deal with grads from certain schools that th
31 2H4: I wonder how often the opposite occurs...where someone with a good deal of experience (someone who consistently can shoot an approach in icing condit
32 DiamondFlyer: Unfortunately, it starts long before that. Many students, in my experience, showed up on day one and expected to throw a chunk of cash on the table a
33 bond007: Some of them, no doubt, the same as any student that's been in that situation. Some of that blame can be aimed at the colleges themselves of course,
34 Be77: I am going to bet that anyone who can consistently shoot the approach in ice, with one feathered, etc., probably could have aced the four year degree
35 SXDFC: I remember reading somewhere that the old Olympic Airways only picked their pilots from the Hellenic Air Force, are there other "Flag Carriers" out th
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