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JFK Parallel ILS Approach Question.  
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3401 times:

Hi,

I'm wondering if JFK can do parallel ILS approaches on its closely spaced runways (22/4) like airports such as San Francisco can? Are they using PRM or SOIA procedures, and if not, why

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Yes it can happen... it doesn't; because there is only one approach flow into the area...


ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3372 times:

The reason for only 1 approach flow is?

Do they use PRM/SOIA?


User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Because we don't have airspace to have multiple routes of flight into the airport?

Check the STARs.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

Well, they certainly do use parallel approaches to the 31s. I often watch that on radar. So, it is possible then with 1 approach flow, no?

I don't see why they can't use it on the 22s.

[Edited 2012-03-02 14:04:05]

User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Oh they have aircraft landing on 22R...if it's requested; I just figured out what you were asking.

But usually on 22L it's the VOR Approach with 22L ILS up.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3354 times:

So, there is no hope of closely spaced parallel approaches using Precision Runway Monitoring or SOIA like in San Francisco?

User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting aquablue (Reply 6):

Been there, tried that... and no.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3330 times:

I'd like if someone explained it to me with more than 1 line. Thanks.
Why bother answering if you're just going to give one liners? You're not talking to an aviation worker here.

[Edited 2012-03-02 14:27:25]

[Edited 2012-03-02 14:30:20]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting aquablue (Reply 4):
I don't see why they can't use it on the 22s.

The costs of PRM or SOIA equipment are high. The benefit, in this case, is not that great - the fact that you'd be using both 22s or both 4s for landings would mean that your takeoff capacity is reduced or eliminated on those runways.

Because they don't have PRM or SOIA equipment (and you would need SOIA, since the runways are too close for PRM by a couple hundred feet). And though I'm not exactly sure why they don't put in such equipment, I would suspect that it has to do with the airspace being very congested and there's no room for the extra arrival and departure corridors that would make it work.

Also, there is a cost/benefit side to everything, and it's possible that there aren't enough days where such an approach would get used to justify the expense.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

I understand, thanks.

I wonder would NextGen free up airspace to allow for another approach flow by allowing planes to fly closer together and also by using ground based systems to allow for closely spaced parallel approaches?


User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

The 22s are used together for ILS landings right? I was watching the flow inbound one afternoon and the ATC directed certain planes to 22R ILS and some to 22L ILS and I didn't notice any pilot requests for it. Takeoffs were primarily on 22R and 31L.

[Edited 2012-03-03 18:02:26] The radar showed planes generally coming in over the coast of LI in 1 flow, but they were split off into two approaches at times.

[Edited 2012-03-03 18:03:38]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21552 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting aquablue (Reply 11):
The 22s are used together for ILS landings right?

If they are, it'll be in visual conditions only, or the aircraft will have to be staggered on the approaches (which limits capacity and thus is pretty pointless, considering the hit your departure rate is going to take).

It's rare, though - most of the time it's just 22L for landings.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
If they are, it'll be in visual conditions only, or the aircraft will have to be staggered on the approaches (which limits capacity and thus is pretty pointless, considering the hit your departure rate is going to take).

Aircraft are staggered on the approach into the 22s regardless...

But 22L can be a VOR/DME with ILS avaliable and the 22R ILS will be up.



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2814 times:

How is it rare, are you sure? I say this because very often when I look on the radar & monitor the ATC when the wind is in that direction it shows planes landing on both runways (22s) in the afternoon (which is when I monitor). Often they land very close to parallel. Also, the ILS approach is given for both by the controllers. They are also using the 31L for takeoffs at the same time!

Yesterday, for instance, the controllers switched the approach clearance from 22L to 22R for multiple planes on arrival. ILS also. The wordings was 'cleared ILS approach', there were no mention of VOR/DME approach.

The conditions were perhaps visual, but no visual approaches were assigned and the arrivals were filtering in nicely in the late afternoon. It seemed to work very well with 3 runways in use, 2 for landing, 2 for departure.

Also, because this was an arrival heavy time, I think arrivals took precedent here anyway so departure rate isn't of paramount concern? I think having NextGen closely spaced approaches might even speed up arrivals in this configuration in bad weather, no?

[Edited 2012-03-04 09:17:03]

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